COME TO THE ANAHEIM 1/2 SEMINAR WEDNESDAY MORNING
It appears as though LIBOR is being thrown under the bus as a distraction from the much larger mortgage securitization scam. Both cases relied upon trust that was breached, money that was invented, figures that were fabricated, lying, cheating and inside trading to the detriment of the institutions that participated in one form or another. In both cases the ultimate victims on both sides of the transactions is the consumer.
Yet with LIBOR “suits are mounting,” (Wall Street Journal) investigations proliferating and a handy group of scapegoats far from the top of the scam may well be prosecuted.
The only difference seems to be that the size of the LIBOR scandal in terms of consequences to the institutions and consumers appears to be far less than the monumental scam foisted upon taxpayers all over the industrialized world, especially in the U.S.
To be certain the manipulation of the LIBOR rates was clearly an intentional act, but so was the insertion of the bankers naked nominees when residential loans were originated. In most cases, securitization was different in the commercial setting because it was more likely that more questions would be asked by higher priced, more sophisticated lawyers for the borrower.
The manipulation of LIBOR rates resulted in the wrong calculation of adjustable rate mortgages all over the world, making the notices of default, demand for payment and perhaps even the sales illegal. That is more in the nature of legal argument. The insertion of nominees controlled by the investment banks as payees, nominees, trustees, beneficiaries and mortgagees in lieu of the institutions that were actually providing the money and hiding the compensation that TILA requires to be disclosed, the steady practice of table funded loans which are deemed “predatory per se” under regulation Z, allowed intermediaries to pretend to be the lenders, the owners of the loans so they could trade with impunity. If they lost money, they threw the loss over the fence at the taxpayers and investment funds that bought bogus mortgage bonds. If they made money, they kept it.
The only difference is that the the amount of money involved in the non-existent securitization scheme that was so well “documented” was that it resulted in siphoning out the life blood of multiple nations and sending the world into a recession not seen in most of your lifetimes. AND the policy makers in Washington either were or are in bed with the perpetrators on this scheme, whereas the LIBOR scandal is being couched in terms where the traders were conspiring but the banks were unaware of their transgressions.
Let’s face it, if suddenly you have a trading department that is reporting profits geometrically and even exponentially higher than any other time in history, as CEO you would want to know why. Those trading profits did exactly that in both LIBOR and the mortgage securitization myth. One must ask why thousands of advertisements costing billions of dollars were on TV, radio, newspapers and magazines for loans at 5%. Put pencil to paper. If normal underwriting standards were used, and normal fees were applied to intermediaries who made the loan possible, there would be no room in the budget for such extravagance, much less the pornographic profits and bonuses reported on Wall Street. Why were armies of salesmen, including 10,000 convicted felons in Florida alone pushed into the market place as mortgage brokers or mortgage originators?
The intentional reporting of the wrong rates has an effect on all loans, past, present and future, but it requires yet more education of an already overloaded judiciary. So throwing a few traders under the bus and calling it a day is pretty much what is going to happen.
As it turns out though, the Banks have painted themselves into a corner on the securitization scam. What they securitized was paper, not money. The monetary transactions were left untouched by the documents, leaving the people who loaned the money through the scam vehicle known as a REMIC trust with no security for a bad loan.
Hence neither the documentation of an on-existent transaction between the parties named on the instrument, nor the manipulation of terms that were presented in one set to the investor-lenders and an entirely different set of terms presented to the borrower created valid contracts, much less perfected liens. But that didn’t matter to the intermediaries who were supposed to be acting as intermediaries — in the same way a check clears the bank — with no claim to the subject matter of the transaction.
They too manipulated rates by creating second tier yield spread premiums, and thus created spreads upon which they could withdraw money, pay for insurance, credit default swaps and other bets that the bad loans they wanted and received would fail, leaving the market in free-fall.
Predicting the market to to fall is like pushing a person off a cliff. You pretty much know that once the balance is lost the person is doomed. Doctoring up the applications with false income and false property appraisals did exactly that. It was a bet on a sure thing. Wall Street could rest comfortably in the knowledge that housing would ultimately fall to normal levels simply because there was nobody who could or would pay the premium they invested on the mortgage scam.
Now Wall Street is creating entities that will buy up “distressed”properties — a product of their own wrongdoing, using the money of the same people who owned the homes that were foreclosed — i.e., their pension and 401k retirement money. So they used your own money to fund a bad loan to you that they knew they could foreclose, and in between the time they originated the loan documents and the time of foreclosure they engaged in trading on your mortgage even though they had no part in funding or purchasing the loan.
My question to you is where is your outrage? When are you going to fight the bank control of Washington, the bank manipulation of judiciary by fabricating false, forged documentation that “looks right?” You can do it by voting against hose most closely tied to the Wall Street community, by fighting with the party claiming to be your mortgage lender/servicer, or both. If you don’t you are handing the Country over to the banks and leaving it to your children and grandchildren to suffer the consequences.
Filed under: bubble, CDO, CORRUPTION, currency, Eviction, foreclosure, GTC | Honor, Investor, Mortgage, securities fraud | Tagged: borrowers, distressed properties, fraud, homeowners, insidekr trading, insider trading, intermediaries, Libor, nominees, securitization scam, taxpayers, VICTIMS, Wall Street |
Some facts of the NARDI deposition: http://foreclosuredefensenationwide.com/?p=469
Some other depositions at: http://www.scribd.com/deleted/102712025?query=%22deposition+of%3A+lawrence+nardi%2C+volume+1+of+2%22
Brand New Service of Process Case out of the Fifth
August 31st, 2012 | Author: JKral
This firm regularly looks at the released cases out of every circuit case in the state of Florida that concerns mortgage foreclosures. Today, the 5th DCA came out and reiterated what has been said many times before: that service of process must be strictly complied with. In Schofield v. Wells Fargo Bank N.A., the 5th DCA reversed the trial court’s order denying defendant’s motion to quash service of process. The lower court denied the motion to quash despite finding that:
” the process server failed to include the date and time of service, his identification number, or his initials on any of the documents served on the Schofields.”
The 5th reached the logical conclusion in reversing the trial court when comparing what the process server did vs. the statute 48.301(5):
“A person serving process shall place, on the first page of at least one of the processes served, the date and time of service and his or her identification number and initials for all service of process. The person serving process shall list on the return-of-service form all initial pleadings delivered and served along with the process. The person issuing the process shall file the return-of-service form with the court.”
Unfortunately, this office has seen too many cases where service of process is an issue. These statutes are meant to protect defendants and ensure they receive proper notice of lawsuits.
Here is a link the opinion.
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Here is a thorn in their side for all of us. The deposition of Lawrence Nardi.
http://www.stellionata.com/in-the-news/38-headlines/7662-120509-jpmc-v-waisome-lawrence-nardi-deposition READ PAGE 261 AND THE FRONT PAGES DISCRIBING HIS POSITION AT CHASE. SHAM SHAM ON CHASE AND DEUTSCH TO KNOWINGLY BE STEALING THESE HOUSES ALONG WITH ALL THE OTHER BANKSTERS. I HOPE THIS HELP MILLIONS OF YOU. Please print it before it disappears off the web. All the others did ASAP
The documentary INSIDE JOB by Charles Ferguson said the investors risks were insured with CDS insurance. They ALL got paid back by AIG thanks to the American people. WE THE PEOPLE who lost our livelihoods, pension money and other investments are fighting for our survival. The politicians used the policeman’s, fireman’s, and teachers pension funds as a credit card. WE THE PEOPLE are still bailing out these crooks for gazillions in fraud that is not OUR DEBT…the people keep handing the crooks what’s left of their wealth and the crooks are pocketing it and hiding it overseas. They American people are keeping the Corporate Government ponzi scheme alive and therefore, we are destroying ourselves.
Niel,
WHAT TO DO WITH THE TBTF BANKS?
What we need is prosecution of these financial despots! And sense they control both major parties, and our government’s legislative bodies, and the executive branch, only a revolution will do. I hope that this revolution is like Russia’s last one, mostly bloodless, but the people who have done this crime, and the false flag attack of 9/11 will not surrender easily. With their control of the major media, and newly enacted laws that have robbed the American people of their rights guaranteed in the Constitution, and in the Magna Carta, will enable police “if they go along with it” to stifle the public’s rights.
The public must be informed of the facts, and all parties responsible for this huge violation/crime upon the people of the United States, and the world, must be brought to justice. Otherwise we are all doomed to lives of economic slavery.
View the graphs at this site and if possible, post for your followers. The graphs really help people understand.
http://demonocracy.info/infographics/usa/derivatives/bank_exposure.html
Thank You Mr Garfield
I meant society that governs like vampires.
So discusting we live in a societ that sucks the blood of innocent people. Feels like we are ran by vampires.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-08-28/poor-in-india-starve-as-politicians-steal-14-5-billion-of-food.html
“This is the most mean-spirited, ruthlessly executed corruption because it hits the poorest and most vulnerable in society,” said Naresh Saxena, who, as a commissioner to the nation’s Supreme Court, monitors hunger-based programs across the country. “What I find even more shocking is the lack of willingness in trying to stop it.”
Unpunished
This scam, like many others involving politicians in India, remains unpunished. A state police force beholden to corrupt lawmakers, an underfunded federal anti-graft agency and a sluggish court system have resulted in five overlapping investigations over seven years — and zero convictions… ”
(The above excerpt is from the article about devastating corruption in India—but you could easily replace some words with what’s going on in America with our housing/mortgage/jobs crisis, and OUR corrupt government…very sad we have become no better than third world countries…)
You should have used that in that Chapter 13 BK case with Judge Donovan? Remember what he said, lol.
Libor is the international money index for short term cost of funds sold over the counter . The Commercial paper rate is the source for short term over the counter borrowing for domestic markets in America
Libor 3 and 6 months cost of funds are used to invest in long term 30 year mortgages. Our 30 ear treasury is held as the premier choice of funding in the overseas housing and industrial markets.
A foreign company will make projections for profitability over the 5, 10 and 20 year course. US company s will fire there Presidents after three successive bad quarters.
The short term commercial paper market rates were hovering at the thirty year Treasury mark for a very long time. The traditional bell curve US charts were like a plane after take off and flattened out from 90 days through to the 30 year mark.
That’s the corporate debt. market place
The mortgage Banking sectors were selling US rates into foreign exchange swaps going back as far as 1987 where Europeans sold American corporate long term mortgage debt and servicing originators Libor or AKA the London inter-bank offering Rate.
Foreign Banks were doing these swaps with US Bank through the Fed ad B of NY Mellon for purposes of satisfying the demand in US housing markets and attraction with adjustable rate mortgages.
If the 30 year treasury was hovering towards the five year and the five year near the 90 day commercial paper rate. If the mortgage markets dependency on warehouse lines of credit was therefore equal to the five and 30 years offering for fixed rate. If mortgage’s were accustomed to taking 6 percent as a rate whereby the prepayment speed on a 360 /360 term was falling short of five years.
Think, think of the possibilities if you could bring into the scheme the foreign national banks and have them participate in the origination of the securities at a weighted average 6 to 6.5 percent mortgage against the LIBOR cost of funds You remove the spreads cost of swapping out the indices by converting the mortgagors note into an alternative investment as compared to the five year treasury,
The Libor cost of funds over the 90 day and six month LIBOR would drive up demand for the ADR market . And, if the flat yield commercial paper yields were to curve dramatically back downward , say to 50 BPS ….The LIBOR based mortgages would produce there own windfall while the mortgages could be cross sold , deceptively I might add, as corporate debt . The Banks cost to originate a mortgage created a corporate debt spread of five percent with the capital manager funds thing they were purchasing grade AA mortgages.
To an analyst this is huge and virtually the next set of pins to fall following the uncovering of the Barclay debacle . . . .
My advice to this site …..LEAVE IT ALONE . STIR UP CONTROVERSY ELSEWHERE lieN. Call the BBB or Rip off report. I mean really- leave this alone.
Problem is your talkin’ ’bout Robo Sigs and new Linda Green,your talkin RED Lebanese ;A dirty room and a silver spoon …
Black Nepalese, it’s got you weak in your knees ,Seeds and dust that you got busted on ……Banks know it’s hard to believe .
30 days in the hole ,
Pie / Steve Marriott/
registerclaims@live.com
Several well said comments here—we are becoming more and more INDEPENDENT INVESTIGATORS OF TRUTH…the time and day of “sheeple” is slowly but surely becoming a thing of the past…9/11 has massive fraud and deception—the financial industry has massive fraud and deception…the internet is the reason these deceptions can no longer be as easy as they used to be and we ARE “waking up” to the truth of our government—we can’t go back to being asleep any more with regards to truth.
Independent investigation of truth…of ALL KINDS.
No more blind beliefs.
LT bravo for: http://www.slideshare.net/laurentratar/we-the-sheeple-vs-the-banksters-13699435
Right on Neil!
I am outraged, as are my children, their friends, our families, and we sign petitions, talk to people, post information, write the president, congressmen, our attorney general and our private legal contacts.
It is not enough to justify that whatever settlement or program of the flavor of the month is making us whole, helping us to regain our financial lives. As long as they ( meaning anyone involved in our transaction from origination to present) pay out a small amount of money compared to what they claim they made in profit and neither admit nor deny wrongdoing and lobby to prevent us from being financially free from them will make us more determined to fight.
We fight for those who didn’t even know what hit them and walked away, fight for those children who have to go to school and return home to their car, fight with those pro se’s and whistle blowers and bloggers and most importantly for those who thought suicide was a proper response to foreclosure.
So yeah, I’m mad as hell and I only hope that we all stay determined to pursue equal justice.
Maybe add this in there somewhere:
Please understand that is only with (insert name of newspaper here)’s cooperation that these fraudulent foreclosures can be carried out. (Insert name of newspaper here) needs to decide whether it is on the side of its readers and subscribers–who are unquestionably being victimized by the banks and/or their purported agents–or on the side of the banks. In short, who will (insert name of newspaper here) choose to support, the victims of this fraud or the perpetrators of it?
OUTRAGE? The People have been cunningly lulled into apathy and brainwashed to believe what is reported on the cabal-owned media. The Powers that be are using Joseph Goebbles propaganda playbook and indeed the intention of the cabal is to ‘fleece the sheeple’ as they have done countless times with countless intentionally created bubbles. I have documented this in a FREE book and powerpoint online entitled “We the Sheeple VS. The Banksters” hosted at both scribd.com and slideshare.net.
Foreclosures and robbing people of their pensions are two prongs of a multi-pronged attack being waged upon the people of this world in an effort to disempower the middle class and propel us into survival-mode where we are malleable to the dictates of the cabal.
Hence, our challenge is to increase AWARENESS as consciousness cannot be CHANGED, unless it is first RAISED. And one most effective strategy the cabal has employed for hundreds of years is “Divide and Conquer.” The cabal watches in delight as their minions pour fire on the most absurd, inane and inconsequential issues which trigger strong emotions from people thus creating acute polarity and diverting the attention of the public from the crimes they are committing.
It is time to wake up AMERICA!!!
How ’bout this:
Dear Editor,
You may or may not be aware that your newspaper is enabling banks and/or purported agents of banks to throw residents of (insert your county here) out of their houses under false premises recited in advertisements which you are printing in the pages of (insert the name of the newspaper here). The laws of (insert your state here) require that advertisements of foreclosure notices be printed in a newspaper published in (insert your county here)–as your newspaper is–and that if such advertisements are not printed, the foreclosure sale is invalid. And if the foreclosure sales are invalid, your readers get to keep their homes!
Surely you are aware of the rampant foreclosure fraud taking place across the country using such fraudulent practices as robo-signing, lack of endorsements on notes, and so forth. All of these fraudulent practices are well-documented in consent orders between the government and the banks and servicers.
(Insert the name of the newspaper here) could stop this fraud dead in its tracks if you will simply refuse to print advertisements of foreclosure notices. Any lost revenue from your refusal to print these scurrilous advertisements will likely be made up by increased subscriptions and/or single-copy purchases due to your courageous stance should you decide to stop printing these advertisements. The public will be watching and waiting for your decision and I sincerely hope that you will truly serve your readers and the public at large by refusing to print advertisements for foreclosure in (insert the name of the newspaper here).
The statute goes on to say this:
“No sale of lands under a deed of trust or mortgage, shall be valid unless such sale shall have been advertised as herein provided for, regardless of any contract to the contrary. An error in the mode of sale such as makes the sale void will not be cured by any statute of limitations, except as to the ten-year statute of adverse possession.”
So if the newspaper doesn’t publish the notice, the sale is invalid. The more I think about it, the more I think this is a worthwhile strategy to pursue. The state I’m referring to, by the way, is Mississippi. Any fellow LL-ers from other states have similar statutes?
This could be the back door solution we’re looking for. The newspapers are the weak link in the sale-by-advertisement scheme, Maybe a letter to the editor (hopefully for publication, but if not, just to send) is a way to start. Might we brainstorm herein on a generic letter–as direct, short, and pithy as possible–that those of us in sale-by-advertisement states could send in. I would think that it would need to explain the fraudulent nature of the notices–for example, the mention of MERS and the fake “assistant secretaries”/”vice presidents” of MERS that are often found to have signed the notices and/or the trustees who are supposedly empowered by MERS to initiate a foreclosure.
I’ll draw up something in a little while and post it here.
The statute does specify a newspaper:
” Sale of said lands shall be advertised for three consecutive weeks preceding such sale, in a newspaper published in the county, or, if none is so published, in some paper having a general circulation therein…”
My county is small and there are only 2 papers published in that county, only one of which could be considered a “newspaper”–the other is an advertising paper. Come to think of it, the newspaper is not even printed within my county anymore (the printing arm of the paper was moved upstate), so it fails the first test of the statute. Unless it could be argued that “printing” and “publishing” are two different things. But the single “newspaper” does have a “general circulation therein”….
Anyway, this idea is based on the model of my county. So if a group went to the newspaper and said “Look, by you publishing these fraudulent notices, you are arguably not only helping criminals (i.e., “banks”) violate the law, but you are also likely violating the law and yourself and we intend to hold you accountable for such violations. Furthermore, by publishing these notices, you are harming the very readers/subscribers that make your existence possible–think about it–when people get in dire financial straits, they start shedding unnecessary expenses, like newspaper subscriptions.”
As far as I know, the newspaper is under no obligation of any kind to publish these notices–after all, these are non-judicial foreclosures so there is no court order that the newspaper must publish these notices.
But as I said, this is a small-town paper with easily accessible higher-ups (at least the local higher-ups are accessible)–even though the paper is owned by Gannett. And we might be surprised–the local employees of the paper might be sympathetic and agree to it. Probably not, but might be worth a shot.
And if they aren’t sympathetic and won’t give in, then the picketing starts. Signs saying “This newspaper helps banks take your house” and such like. Maybe I’m completely grasping at straws here, but since the courts and the rest of the government are bound and determined to see us homeless, maybe a private company will respond to pressure.
1othemany of thousands or millions of us! YES That came to mind also. The bankster gansters own the media. Boycotting and starting lawsuits against the media is fighting the same guys. Still may get us somewhere. A little stone turned. So obvious the media is controlled by the crooks.
Giving the newspapers notice they are advertising false frauds foreclosing and will/can be held liable would be worth the try. Also the county records!! Non Judicial states and judicial states have county records allowing false fruad information to be filed enabling tghe crooks to do the crime. There are no wheels of justice in the White House that is for sure. MERS is at the WA State legistlature today as we speak asking for legistlature to skirt around the WA Supreme Court judges brave ruling against MERS and to find laws to enable MERS to be lawful in this state. The wheels of Crime roll on.
Do NOT forget who owns the media.
@ZUR,
“In my state (which I’m assuming is not any or much different from others in this regard), the would-be foreclosers have to publish a notice in a paper of general circulation in the county in which the fraudclosure is supposed to take place. And this notice has to be published once a week for three weeks prior to the sale. This publishing of a notice is required by the law.”
Does the statute in your state clearly specify that it must be a newspaper? Can banks find a way to infer from it that any publication is good, including via internet? Have they actually used internet already? I wouldn’t be overly surprised since they’ve circumvented a lot of statutes and laws by using internet… In that case, your idea would become a bit more complicated to implement.
@Z: you may be unto something: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGbjpyi7hn0
Idea for campaign to stop foreclosures (tell me what you think):
In my state (which I’m assuming is not any or much different from others in this regard), the would-be foreclosers have to publish a notice in a paper of general circulation in the county in which the fraudclosure is supposed to take place. And this notice has to be published once a week for three weeks prior to the sale. This publishing of a notice is required by the law.
So since the courts, banks, investors, lawyers, county officials, etc. won’t listen to us, maybe the newspapers will. We should organize a campaign to get newspaper to stop publishing foreclosure notices, and then the foreclosures can’t go forward. I’m not sure how we’d get the papers to stop publishing the notices, but given that most local papers are hurting for money, one idea is that maybe we set up some system to reimburse the papers for any money they would lose from not accepting these foreclosure advertisements, which can’t be much money. That’s the carrot part of the idea–the stick part is a boycott of the paper’s advertisers.
Also as part of this campaign, the newspapers need to be made aware that they are publishing false information and can and will be held liable for doing so.
Another plus is that the newspapers are more accountable and directly reachable by the people than any other players in the fraudclosure document chain. The dying newspapers also can’t afford to upset what few readers/subscribers they have left.
That’s all I got–anybody got any thoughts on this? Not saying it’s perfect–just came up with this. Don’t know if it’ll work. But it’s a possible solution I haven’t seen anywhere else. Might be the simplest solution yet.
ILLICIT MORTGAGE INVESTMENTS MADE WITH ILLICIT DRUG-MONEY MUST BE DESTROYED:
Illicit DRUGS are destroyed upon seizure by government forces in every country, when they are confiscated in bulk quantities, no matter who produces, sells or traffics, the bulk drugs. This is the standard mandatory legal procedure in every country. All money and investment proceeds of such drug transactions are also seized ASAP, this includes real-estate investments made by purchase of mortgages with drug money. Therefore, all the 5 million plus Wachovia mortgages bought with $1/2 trillion DRUG DOLLARS, and subsequently laundered into Wells Fargo in 2009, to evade government seizure, must be destroyed by the operation of U.S. laws which I cited in my U.S. Supreme Court petition case #11-1013 on 5/18/12, which was denied.
This is now a publicly made demand to the United States, and to each of the 50 states’ government authorities, and to Federal & State Grand Juries, to mandate the destruction of the bulk of Wachovia’s mortgages, purchased with drug-money and amassed during the last decade, most of which drug-mortgages were transferred into Wells Fargo entities in 2009. This simple operation can be done by the Federal Government’s, or individual states’, passage of a simple bill to annul every Wachovia mortgage acquired last decade, or by “quieting title” of the related real properties in the names of their original owners, by mandating county recorders to record one page NOTICE OF FULL RECONVEYANCE as against every Wahcovia-related mortgage existing in county records. Such a mandatory legal process would kick-start to stabilize this country’s housing and other economic and social woes which I revealed to be coming in 2004 (eight years ago, and 4 years ahead of its time). In the alternative, and because U.S. Government officials have been fearful of punishing banks’ crime bosses, and have been fearful of hurting banks’ toxic products, such as Wachovia’s drug-money mortgage-investments, a few competent lawyers can collaborate to commence a national qui-tam, mass-tort, or class-action, which could render the same legal results without criminal process. If you are such an attorney please enlist. http://livinglies.wordpress.com/2012/08/20/should-bankers-go-to-jail/#comment-168017
@ Shelly Actually they all need to be arrested and thrown under the bus as they have done to the public. Think for a moment here. WE could make this happen this year!!
Thank you Neil for hearing the cries of the people and answering the swarm of negative responses with more information being offered here. The people in actuality, are the “biggest” investor in what used to be a sure and solid investment that most, used to be homeowners now renters, would upgrade to move forward and add value or comfort to this investment as well boosting the economy which has all but stopped for most. You have and are shedding the light on this, I personally understand your need to produce money. I feel you are educating the lawyers (and people) with backbone as to how and why we are here and how to hopefully get out of it. Maybe?! the lawyers will remember why they are where they are (for most)…and I hope it is or was at one time “to provide justice for the common man” and hopefully the lawyers will move on this and aggressively, in the interest of the country and the people. Lets hope some reach out to the already “robbed to the bone people”, I would gladly give up some of my ” now little earnings” to make this go away BUT do need to pay the robbers so they do not throw me out in the street, I am too old to live in a cardboard box although I have considered it as I would be free at that point. Still tossing and turning on that one. Thanks for all of your efforts. Been her for about five years now and yes.. the wheels of justice are not only slow but pretty much rusted out.
This is exactly why I am figfhting this with every breath I take. If the poeple who are planning to vote out of fear for the lessor of two evils voting for Romney would vote for the only candidate that addresses the problems, the crimes and the banks and the fed, Ron Paul would be president and we would have a huge change in this tragedy!. This is a tragedy!!!