AFTER $16 TRILLION BANK PAYMENT, WHAT DO WE OWE?

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ARE WE GOING TO GIVE THE BANKS ANOTHER $16 TRILLION?

Between TARP (only $700 Billion) and the FED bailouts ($16 TRILLION) the Banks have already received from all of us enough money to pay off every mortgage, credit card, student loan, auto loan and every other kind of debt allegedly owed to them. And yet, we are told we still owe them the money. If we owe anyone, it is the Federal government and the General Accounting Office should figure out who we pay and how much. It certainly does not seem right that we should pay the $16 TRILLION all over again when the banks have already received the money.

Now add approximately $15 TRILLION that was made in “trading” some of which was booked as principal so it didn’t count as taxable profits, and you may get what I am saying here. If you add all the debt of all Americans to all the banks that received the bailout money, they have already been paid twice over, at a minimum. We are still told that we should pay on those paid debts — payable to the Banks. For those of you counting, that would be the THIRD time the debt is paid. I say they have already been paid. I say the money should go to the Federal government.

What would happen? Well, the government could figure out if any of that money truly should go to the banks and then give them their fair share if there is any fair share. The rest clears up the deficit and provides enough stimulus dollars to shock our recumbent economy into renewed life. Once a full and fair accounting is done, the investors who lost money could be repaid with interest up to the point that the borrowers have borrowed money. The Banks will scream at that because the amount of borrowed money does not equal the total owed to the investors. The amount borrowed is far less than the amount loaned, because the banks siphoned off some 30%of the investors’ money in “fees” and “trading profits.”

The money that was NOT loaned to borrowers is not the borrowers’ problem. The Banks need to take care of that with the money they stuffed into off-shore accounts. The money that has been paid to the investors is also not a problem anymore to the borrowers because the creditor has already been paid — directly or indirectly. That leaves some sort of balance owed by borrowers, which by quick estimates would be around 1/3-1/2 of the amount they borrowed. THAT would reduce the amount due on each debt to a manageable and payable size. Allowing for a fair interest rate of around 3% would clear the decks immediately and boost consumer wealth and confidence sufficient for decades to come.

None of this will happen of course unless there is a paradigm shift from doing what is best for the Banks to doing what is best for the country. It just so happens that it also shifts back to the rule of law. Anyone who has borrowed $100 from Joe, which was paid off by his Aunt Sally knows that if he pays anyone it is going to be Aunt Sally. You are not going to pay Joe AGAIN on the same debt. Or are you?

So there is the question: after all the money we gave to the Banks, why would we pay them again on the same debts that they SAID they lost so much money on? Are we going to give them the whole $16 TRILLION AGAIN? When will people stop beating themselves up about a debt they owe and start questioning why they are paying the same debt multiple times? Why is there a difference between paying the debt as a taxpayer and paying the debt as a borrower? Isn’t it immoral to collect on the same debt multiple times? Isn’t that the true moral question?

47 Responses

  1. I did that Friday. I was the one that suggested Holly retain Max Gardner. Yes, we should all get busy head-pounding.

  2. Similar situation here, I guess you’re very brave or doubt the ability of a consumer attorney to defend your rights?
    The bankrupcy laws were written to prevent people who’d fallen on hard times from going to debtors prison.
    In a universe controlled by banking interests, however bankers tried to take away these protections in 2005 I think it was, and were successful in some respects. The humiliating mandatory credit counseling statute was added. We don’t need that, we need jobs.

    A good consumer rights attorney and activist told me some people are beating creditors without filing bankrupcy, but I don’t know exactly how they’re doing it. His name is Silverman and he practices here in GA.

    I would hope that you’ve studied your rights, since I know you are a good researcher and you can comprehend what you read. It seems the only people who can these days, are people of our generation. The next one has been misled, misinformed, propagandized and lied to so much they wouldn’t recognize the truth if it sat on them.

  3. Nora,

    we are being sued by Cap 1 credit card lawyer 4k, and BofA credit card 23k. We still have Heloc defaulted of 110k to deal with. I have gone pro se into court. What an eye opener. It is unbelievable. We have aroof over our heads on a BS home Mod. Renting would have been actually more,,,,,,,,,,one has to think about their own sit and survive.

    I will tell all consumers, all american’s who just earn a living to STAY AWAY FROM THE GOD DAMN BIG BANKS———-

    becuase if something goes wrong in your life like less income, health problem———–why these debt collectors can and might stream roll you into court……………….

    And the best solution is to not use credit one way or the other from the big banks………….

  4. @cubed;
    You have reached Xanadu, then friend. Can you pay it off early under the terms? I can’t find a single mod that says you can. They are still stacking the deck in their own favor, and it’s disgusting.

    My husband just rolls his eyes when anyone mentions a bank! Doesn’t know and doesn’t want to, heh he he.
    I’ve been getting emails from Chang.org asking me to start a petition about something I care about. So I’ve decided to start a petition to make it perfectly legal to shoot bankers. Those aren’t firecrackers you’re hearing.
    Happy New Year!

  5. Um, you don’t suppose they’d take about 250 lbs of cat food do you? There’s a little spit in it, but it’s still good.

  6. You are a diligent researcher and quite a smart fellow. Are you as overwhelmed by the amount of reading defense of your Title takes

    thanks, and yes.

    It all started when I asked google what is money, why don’t I have any?

    So I researched.

    I am clear on my home having gotten the home mod,,,,,,,,,,don’t ask me how, but after not paying for 1.5 years, they sent it in, and I refused. But they then did foreclosure papers and living in Ca it is hard to find pro se and from my research and whatever I have posted thru the 1.5 years here. But, in facing foreclosure and actually making a payment on a rental thru a friend, why the mod made sense, and my wife was in tears, not from the home, but just restarting again you might say, and we are 55 years old. And why when all said and done, renting was actually more than doing the BS mod,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,so I did it.

    but, in Calif, what do you do………….can’t win, from my research, and hours and hours…………..of it.

    but, this doesn’t mean we are lost…………..or we loose

    I also realized we are just renters, for another 30 years, we will never own the house. And then I realized we are not trapped, we can rent it out if we wish to move,,,,,,,,,,,,so that is ok, I and my wife can confront doing that. We live in a really nice area……….

    But,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

    I will never go into debt, like before,,,,,,,,we are self sufficient,,,,,,,,,,now, which is way cool………..nor will I stop fighting………….or stop from telling what I learn………..

    That is all………..and while I have a mod thru a debt collector who says they are a servicer for fannie mae,,,,,,,,,,,I have not given up either,,,,,,,,,,,,we have some breathing room,,,,,,,,,,,so as to collect some money and save,,,,,,,,,we will have the last laugh

    One must always have a plan B, or C, or D………….it is survival,,,,,,,,,,,,and I will not use any debt instruments again…………..although I am stuck in one right now,,,,,,,,,,,,,but who knows what will happen in the future,,,,,,,,,,,,as people are really seeing the light of day with banks…….these days,,,,,,,,,,they were not 5 years ago……….

    Everyone of my neighbors have a very bad opinion of these banks,,,,,,,,,,,and that is good. It will just take some time,,,,,,and I ain’t going anywhere. I will do my part, be a Jefferson in my small way……..even if a sacrifice.

  7. What I read today makes me think there is a way to beat the bank’s case by questioning things that are taken for granted to be true, but are not so. Here is what Jan van Eck brought up:
    If a Note has a clause in it about prepayment, then it is NOT a true negotiable promissory Note. A true negotiable Note has only a minimal sequence of elements in it: A definite sum, to be paid to a specific party, by a specific date at a specific interest rate. If you look at your Note, you will find things that bar that definition, by design.
    It doesn’t mean that the Note can’t be sold, it means that it can’t be negotiated just by endorsement.
    “When you sell or transfer a non-negotiable instrument, then an extra set of rules kick in. The seller can only sell “for value,” so actual money has to change hands. When you sign a check to a creditor, he can transfer it to some unkown intermediary, such as the local liquor store or check-cashing service, simply by signing the back (thus a bearer instrument at that point,) or by specificity, by writing “pay to the order of xxxx”. end quote.
    So since whoever is claiming to be the Holder can’t prove it other than by posession, which doesn’t work for a non-negotiable instrument, you should be able to beat any bank who claims to be a creditor on these grounds, by demanding proof that valuable consideration was given or money changed hands, rather than a transfer of convienience to facilitate a fraudulent foreclosure by a non-party of interest.

  8. @ cubed,
    U.C.C you quoted is correct. I demanded presentment, they refused. I demanded they rescind the loan, and they refused that too, buddy.
    On these technicallities, and the fact that I got a tax bill in the mail I’d say it’s still mine.
    One of the caveats of rescinding is that if they refuse to rescind upon demand and proof of valid claim within twenty days, you get to keep the property. You can pursue a quiet title action after that or use the Administrative Procedure and the services of a local Notary to get the Title reconveyed to you. But, dear, the property was foreclosed on before I bought it, and I would have to contact the previous owner in order to cure title and get him to sign off on it. Big Big Mess.

    You are a diligent researcher and quite a smart fellow. Are you as overwhelmed by the amount of reading defense of your Title takes?

  9. Dandy language there, but the Note is NOT a Negotiable instrument, and Nemo Dat trumps here. (you can’t transfer ownership of something you don’t own)
    The land records are the final authority on who has a colorable claim.

  10. so if a demand is made on you, because you deflauted,

    2) Upon demand of the person to whom presentment is made, the person making presentment must (i) exhibit the instrument,

    ————–

    per the UCC

    ————-

    show me your papers———–

  11. that’s what the UCC says. I did not make it up. It’s what I researched.

  12. “If tender of payment of an obligation to pay an instrument is made to a person

    ————

    so tender payment of your obligation to pay———-and ask for presentment————–and you will pay if presentment is done…………….

    ————–

    So will they show up at a meeting place, or go to their meeting place,,,,,,,,,,and if they present the obligation………….why pay it. And if they do not,,,,,,,,,,,do not pay.

  13. “If tender of payment of an obligation to pay an instrument is made to a person entitled to enforce the instrument and the tender is refused, there is discharge, ”

    ————————–

    Look.

    make an offer to pay the debt, tender, and say come to home, and I will pay you. in pennies, dollar bills, quarters, nickels, any combination thereof————and if they no show up, why debt discharged———-

    So offer tender…………..

    who says you have to pay them per their terms……….

    what are the legal laws for paying of debt?

    Presentment…………..

    Present the obligation, and I will pay, come to my home and present the obligation

  14. Nora———

    TENDER your payment, come to my home and I will tender the debt,,,,,,,,,,,,,

    Call their bluff. See what happens. What do you have to lose? A house? Big deal…………..

  15. hence. ————-

    offer to pay in pennies, or quarters,,,,,,,,,,,,

    and have your bank representative come to my house to receive payment for the debt, and have presentment of the debt…………….

    It is in the UCC’s

  16. there is discharge,

  17. is made to a person entitled to enforce the instrument and the tender is refused

  18. If tender of payment of an obligation to pay an instrument is made to a person entitled to enforce the instrument and the tender is refused, there is discharge, to the extent of the amount of the tender, of the obligation of an indorser or accommodation party having a right of recourse with respect to the obligation to which the tender relates.

  19. @NORA C———-

    UNIFORM COMMERCIAL CODE

    U.C.C. – ARTICLE 3 – NEGOTIABLE INSTRUMENTS
    ..PART 6. DISCHARGE AND PAYMENT

    § 3-603. TENDER OF PAYMENT.

    (a) If tender of payment of an obligation to pay an instrument is made to a person entitled to enforce the instrument, the effect of tender is governed by principles of law applicable to tender of payment under a simple contract.
    (b) If tender of payment of an obligation to pay an instrument is made to a person entitled to enforce the instrument and the tender is refused, there is discharge, to the extent of the amount of the tender, of the obligation of an indorser or accommodation party having a right of recourse with respect to the obligation to which the tender relates.
    (c) If tender of payment of an amount due on an instrument is made to a person entitled to enforce the instrument, the obligation of the obligor to pay interest after the due date on the amount tendered is discharged. If presentment is required with respect to an instrument and the obligor is able and ready to pay on the due date at every place of payment stated in the instrument, the obligor is deemed to have made tender of payment on the due date to the person entitled to enforce the instrument.

    ————————————————–

    UNIFORM COMMERCIAL CODE

    U.C.C. – ARTICLE 3 – NEGOTIABLE INSTRUMENTS
    ..PART 5. DISHONOR

    § 3-501. PRESENTMENT.

    (a) “Presentment” means a demand made by or on behalf of a person entitled to enforce an instrument (i) to pay the instrument made to the drawee or a party obliged to pay the instrument or, in the case of a note or accepted draft payable at a bank, to the bank, or (ii) to accept a draft made to the drawee.
    (b) The following rules are subject to Article 4, agreement of the parties, and clearing-house rules and the like:
    (1) Presentment may be made at the place of payment of the instrument and must be made at the place of payment if the instrument is payable at a bank in the United States; may be made by any commercially reasonable means, including an oral, written, or electronic communication; is effective when the demand for payment or acceptance is received by the person to whom presentment is made; and is effective if made to any one of two or more makers, acceptors, drawees, or other payors.
    (2) Upon demand of the person to whom presentment is made, the person making presentment must (i) exhibit the instrument, (ii) give reasonable identification and, if presentment is made on behalf of another person, reasonable evidence of authority to do so, and (iii) sign a receipt on the instrument for any payment made or surrender the instrument if full payment is made.
    (3) Without dishonoring the instrument, the party to whom presentment is made may (i) return the instrument for lack of a necessary indorsement, or (ii) refuse payment or acceptance for failure of the presentment to comply with the terms of the instrument, an agreement of the parties, or other applicable law or rule.
    (4) The party to whom presentment is made may treat presentment as occurring on the next business day after the day of presentment if the party to whom presentment is made has established a cut-off hour not earlier than 2 p.m. for the receipt and processing of instruments presented for payment or acceptance and presentment is made after the cut-off hour.

  20. banksterslayer#301——–

    Simple, don’t go into debt using bank instruments.

  21. A message from God,as depicted on an old Libertarian Party T-shirt~”Read MY lips:If GOVERNMENT’S’S lips are moving,they’re LYING…”!!!!!!

    Banksters and government beLIEve that the plan it is THEIRS.We are less than insects-no matter the talk.A man is either telling the truth,or he is not.We’ve already been sold…it didn’t happen overnight and we are in The Crisis.PLANNED crisis…problem,re-action,”solution”.Maybe Final.As in YES IT DOES/”THEY” DO MEAN to eliminate~kill~90% of the human population.The reason one can’t grasp it is that most humans would NOT be able to even entertain such…although many of us were SOLD that we have an”overpopulation problem”/global warming caused solely by CO2 etc(pass the cap n trade).I advocated for Zero Population Growth,too…beLIEving the propaganda/LIES of this psychopathic CABAL of reptilian murdering thieves….bomb!!barded day and night with their imagery of THEIR contrived reality.Ironic that those who profess to “care about Life” are destroying all potential FOR a genuine,Life.AND we the Sheeples get to pay for it-OR ELSE…we PAY,with counterfeit”money” to EXECUTE our Families our Friends and small enemies/neighbors…..WHAT”MONEY”?????The fiat paper?OR Gold even,a plutocracy=a plutocracy….these bastards meant for this to”happen”.Spitfire&cubed2k,right on.Nora C right on,enraged,right on…basically we have SEEN the fangs of THE BEAST and they ARE bearing down on all who DARE to SPEAK THIS TRUTH.

    My Home(home,not”house…) may be history and my situ is further complicated by my STRAWMAN/name not being included on Mortgage/deed…long story…abandoned by the significant other/husband long sad story all too common-do you think all the strife just happens that families just all fell apart…No.We have lost the moral compass;LOST it…by design….

    So I was added to the deed but they can’t locate that anywhere and I have no paper to prove it-you CAN’T just make these things up !!!but I guess even with the “papers” the SS can send anyone to their certain imprisonment/death…yes,I said the SS…..I finally broke and applied for some”assistance”….feeling like a worm,a misfit,no self esteem much…was counseled that I had paid in,to accept this H.E.A.P. Was looking@ a final disconnect,came up with enough to pay the 1st bill,then the next due-applied,told it would be approved…answered phone to hear that the Consumer Advocate-a very real Person,courteous and helpful,had NOT entered any such data to the account…so….here we go…’til Tuesday I’m waiting to find out what”happened”…sorry I know my attitude is off…WHY I never EVER turn to Government or it’s Agents for”assistance”…maybe just a glitch an honest mistake…I JUST WANT TO EARN MY OWN MONEY and at a do-able”wage”…turned 60 yesterday…license due,need glasses no”insurance” outta ca$h…FUN times we’re all having…..Still have our Beloved Dog;heard a story from a friend about a newsflash concerning a”displaced” individual who got no”assistance” and lost all 4 of his rescued Dogs…he was living under a bridge…literally…here in ALBANY NY…the STATE capital…..Occupy Albany was evicted,though the Police did not agree so now….

    ???????
    My Daughter is in Love/engaged to a young gent from the UK;they can not have a Life together due to some border agent who deported her because”I don’t believe that you are here for what you say you are”!!! So she was deported back to the States,she’s never had a traffic ticket let alone a felony…!Two and a half years gone by,she has gained 60 pounds…stress/depression,she is now trying to lose it…he too,gained weight-neither are drinkers/smokers/gamblers not to label anyone,just sayin’ HOW GLOBAL IS THIS POWER TRIP…I called the airlines as the American Embassy/Consulate was closed that day;a kind lady from Continental told me it has become”routine” as the UK has NO JOBS so they worry about”foreigners” coming in..she had no work Visa,and had a 2 way ticket,planning a return…the young man had rented a cottage for them…good bye Love/Marriage/Hopes and Dreams…the happened to be Pakistani said to his co-worker,over my half asleep devastated Daughter”WE don’t need anymore Americans in England anyhow…”She was devastated.Her Father?Fought with the irs,that’s how the home went to BK Court…paid a Lawyer $450.00 per month to prevent foreclosure…VA loan for $129,000 house but with COMPOUND INTEREST AKA USURY INTEREST-EVIL EVIL EVIL EVIL EVIL!!! SERPENTS!!!! that figure rose to OVER $300,000;as we all know.
    No one dares to call it?I’LL CALL IT!!

    U-S-U-R-Y INTEREST IS SATANIC.

    There indeed(in DEED!!) WAS a REASON Christ threw the money “lenders” THE HELL OUT!!!!WITH a friggin’ WHIP!!!!

    So…the message came that”you better rescue her now-and I mean NOW;as things are about to get really really bad for her”…to her fiance,from her Dad…who just faced tax Court…they nailed him to a Tree…like I knew they WOULD…………

    There is no Republic left to save.

    I literally feel like my head AND Heart are imploding.I know there are millions more….

    Thank you for listening if you did,I apologize for my wandering….
    I am going to take Dog for a walk and then a run,as it is”warmest” now…we’re supposed to(??) hit ONE degree by Tuesday…..

    I lift this to my High Tower,my God who IS still Sovereign,despite banksters and gov agents who tear out nation apart….

    Not too proud to ask…please Pray for”me”…bleed with me as was spoken in the cinema….it is about much more than”just me”…it is about Truth,about RIGHT,about LIFE,about LIBERTY,and Happiness…

    They will not long”win”…

    Tyrants always fall…think of it…always…

    they come to power only when people are not paying attention and we are all under ATTACK….

    I would rather be dead in my grave than “live” like a micro managed OWNED Slave…but you know what,I’d much prefer that we ALL…LIVE..as FREE men and women;on an Earth that was NOT created to be SOLD in the first place…..

    How does one sell the Land that a man walks upon?How does one SELL the sky?~Crazy Horse,Lakota and Chief Joseph,Nez perce

    Here’s the pen,here’s the X,put your people on the Line…ohhh,the Life you could have….

    Bury my Home at Wounded Knee…too…..
    Emotional?Well,yes….

  22. @iwantmynpv at 8:30

    Oh, but that “new currency” is an eletronic debit card they can turn off if you don’t behave. You’ll behave or starve. They have already made off with the Euro, it’s collapsing as we write. Once that’s done for, the new master-controlled cashless society is on! Save your quarters, since they are still legal tender, and use some fiat currency to buy a wheel barrow to use when you want a loaf of bread.

    The Italian mafia is going to take care of the x-goldman sachs puppet installed as the new honcho in Italy. They don’t like competition. The rest of the EU will fall apart without the UK, as it is already a bit ragged at it’s unraveling seams.

    Neil, I think we need to print multiple copies of your statements here and send it certified mail to every member of the legislative branch. How much would that cost, sir? I’ll see if I can scrape it up!

  23. Financialization===========debt slavery for the average guy, so others can trade your products or services and make money on your work weather you realize it or not.

  24. financialization is a term that describes an economic system or process that attempts to reduce all value that is exchanged (whether tangible, intangible, future or present promises, etc.) either into a financial instrument or a derivative of a financial instrument. The original intent of financialization is to be able to reduce any work-product or service to an exchangeable financial instrument, like currency, and thus make it easier for people to trade these financial instruments.

  25. financialization refers to a “pattern of accumulation in which profit making occurs increasingly through financial channels rather than through trade and commodity production.”

  26. @npv————

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financialization

  27. @npv-

    I like your posts & agree so no worries.

    Yes, that’s why they lowered interest rates, to provide cheap money borrowing. On mortgage loans and credit cards and car loans. It’s about affording a monthly payment, and not about total debt owed.

    Of course, with interest rates so low, why savers of money in a bank account get no return, savers of money get screwed and what is promoted is you get a better return in the stock market. That would be Wall St. And of course, 401k’s are in stocks. And now there is talk of privatizing Social Security – more money for Wall St so YOU can be in Control when nothing is further from the truth. How many people’s IRS’s and 401k’s went by the wayside to pay down some easy money credit cards and heloc’s and mortgages? So the banks and wall st got it all back.

    There can be no money made on Wall St on price stability. There has to be action, there has to be price movement up or down. Sad part is Wall St gets to make money up or down, while your average American can make no money on the way down, if fact they get either trapped into paying for the higher prices using credit and time payments and/or sell at a loss plus on the hook for time payments at full value paid. While Wall St gets to short everything, and then buy back dearly at low prices, and then buy again outright at low prices, and then prices go up and up, and Wall St sells to the public again. Up and down, up and down. And if one is in the hole, one can not take advantage of the lows. Oh, they call this the business cycle because it happens over and over. Well, it is created by Wall St over and over

  28. Well, I for one am not going to a FEMA Camp unless they have room service and a small in ground swimming pool next to the golf course.

  29. @Spitfire

    I would like to contact you concerning the attorney you were going to refer me too.

  30. Please see http://www.GOOOH.com. This may be our only chance at changing things. Get involved PLEASE.

  31. “FEMA camps eleven years ago” & ndaa should ring loudly the intentions of the traitors that have infested our country.
    9/11 shows the extent they will go to complete the domination .
    THIS IS business as usual , btw watch for the “drones the terrorists”
    recovered intact ,as they will be making appearances all over the world. This planet is officially scary! Only a lunatic would say such things ; ] happy new year

  32. the higher prices are , the more Government takes in taxes….seems like a conflict of interest (no pun intended)

  33. @cube What if best buy and target had a monopoly on creating / selling fans / I’m going for the currency thing, so try to play along and deal with my other crap for a moment.

    They all wake up one day and say how can we sell more fans, well we make the requirements to get a fan easier. They in turn pay others to value the fans higher and higher so they create reason for others to start selling their used fans a bit cheaper than new ones.

    Folks leverage the new-found equity in their used fans because target is willing to give them money to buy other non-essential “me now” crap. This in turn creates pushed the prices for new fans higher because the used fans are no longer being sold – the value is being extracted but interest on the used fan, that they owned outright, is now created and la la money is created.

    Because they control who values the fans they drive the cost of new fans higher because many will say, why buy a used fan when i can have new for a couple bucks more. They have a realtor, er I mean a fan salesperson coaching them along. You can finance this new fan and it will only cost you a couple bucks more, but you can afford it because the interest rate is low. Why simply open the window when you can have something as close to air conditioning for just a couple pennies more. Fan prices will always go higher and this is an investment (kinda like tulips). I’m sure you get the point but…

    What I am trying to point out is exactly what the banks do through the media, our politicians, lawyers etc.. They keep you so focused that the fan, target, best buy, air conditioners, realtors interest, affordability and all this other crap is what is important. Lest we forget the fact that the very dollar we took out of our pocket is also debt getting paid interest via tax dollars.

    That’s why they all say Federal Reserve NOTE. The value of that Note is directly tied to our fear of not paying taxes or having the courage to stand up and say enough is e-fucking-nuf, (sorry for the wasted words) I had the day off and have read up on the posts here and now choosing to take a step forward, I need to compose myself to remain effective.

    Take out a dollar, you will see what i am talking about, and that is also has the debt series and issue date. The real challenge is to find the hidden owl, lol, take a look, it’s there and it is all seeing.

  34. @npv–

    “The value is not created until the mortgage and note are executed”

    This is also true of everything, even if paid in cash.

    ie, I buy a car for cash for 10k. I can buy the same car from another for 8k. Or maybe another for 12k.

    I can sell that car later for 10k, or maybe 12k, or maybe 8k. It all depends on who will buy it and for at what price. What also enters in is time, how long to sell.

    But, A datum can be evaluated only by a datum of comparable magnitude. A datum is a piece of knowledge or fact.

    Thus, I want a fan. I go to target to get a fan. They are selling it for 20 bucks. I remember seeing the same fan or even a slightly better one selling for 15 bucks at Best Buy. I go to Best Buy and buy it. Thus datum of comparable magnitude. And to boot, Best Buy is right next store to Target so I don’t even have to pay for gas to get to Best Buy..

    Thus we have a marketplace. Thus we have a stock market and all can see the prices offered for sale or offer to buy. We have car dealers, we have stores.

    Housing market —lets see comparable’s in the hood.

    Well, if one has a lot of money than anyone can manipulate the prices up or down.

    Now enter in your banks creating money and the whole monetary system controlled by who?

    All basic stuff here and we forget the basics because it is all so complicated we need experts and protection bureaus nowadays.

  35. i have noticed the TBTF dont seem to be foreclosing on houses that DONT have PMI…..wonder why that would be ?

  36. I agree 100%…how many times are the banks going to get paid for the same debt??!! I always thought about this, even if they got paid off by PMI insurance that FHA require borrowers to carry, then why would we still owe the banks?? We owe the entity that paid off our loan..whether it be the Feds or whoever…I think we will get a fairer deal with the Feds, perhaps they can sell our mortgage to smaller banks or community based institutions….

  37. Our entire monetary system is not founded on paying forward. The interest is always paid looking backward.

    Hence, nothing of value sits at the closing table except some cheap desks occupied by cheap people in expensive suits.

    The value is not created until the mortgage and note are executed, and thus the leverage and the nominal value we as purchasers place on a housing structure. When debt structures leverage past the pinnacle one of two things must occur to protect the structure itself. The system must create new interest through consumer debt or the government must begin borrowing to create new interest to pay it backward on the old interest, which pays on the older interest… ect.. that is why they eliminated the 30 year for a spell. To drag long term investors into the 10 year turn. Remember the slogan; nobody stays in the same house more than 10 years. They create this mindset so folks begin to process thoughts in that manner.

    It is really about using an asset class to continually generate new interest and fees for banks and insurance companies. The principal never gets paid and the asset is shifted to a new occupier that pays interest.

  38. @Holly

    See what I was telling you?

    http://mandelman.ml-implode.com/2011/12/doer-alert-wells-fargo-bank-how-could-you-do-this-to-a-mother-of-four/

    Readers, time is now to act and pester Wells Fargo!

    Please, got on this site and send to WF CEO a very strong e-mail.
    Chairman of the Board, President, CEO: John.G.Stumpf@wellsfargo.com

    Together, we can make a hell of a difference!!!!!!!!!!!!

  39. Yes–great comments from Enraged and Spitfire!

  40. @ Iwantmynpv

    Little brain here. Good at many things but not at understanding what is painfully complicated by design… I gave it my best shot with that little brain ‘cuz… I’m still struggling to wrap my mind around the whole shabbang. In fact, anyone with an ounce of common sense, including Wall Streeters, can’t. So, I’m in good company.

    All I know is that we all paid forward over and over with the unending bailouts, including little fetuses not yet conceived and definitely not eager to qualify as “little persons”.

    That being said, I always knew Hector was pretty smart… Let’s go hang Joe!

  41. @ enraged – I looked up the pool you referred to below. Joe did not have the $100.00, he had fractional lending. Also, Hector did receive a prospectus, he decided not to get involved, because the entire structure lacked recourse to nay of the parties in the Silo, and there was no loan tape attached. Instead, he told Joe to hire Bear Stearns, get a triple A rating and dump the crap on our pension funds. PGTC ( yet another quasi ) has less than 50 billion and when the DOW breaks 10,000 all of our fortune 500 guys will have to come up with billions to maintain ERISA and the 2006 congressional mandates.

    Union workers should start suing employers now for not making regular contributions to the pensions, instead pointing at paper gains and saying we are funded. This is all going to unwind badly over the next 24 months.

    On the bright side, we will have the international currency to fall back on. It will be out soon after Greece misses the next quarterly nutt to the IMF. Happy New Year.

  42. Neil, that is why they are Judge shopping now in federal court. Equity claim, or God’s law. Imagine, the most corrupt folks in the world are going to seek equitable relief. The real question, if they receive a default judgment on the Note, will the courts allow foreclosure by the Trustee establishing that the owner had paid cash flow and it was forwarded to the master servicer?

    Will the Federal Court circumvent state courts on the threshold issue, allowing them to bypass mandatory settlement conference, and further allow them to seek relief despite no damages to the parties in interest, certificate holders, who certainly have judicial relief available under the very basic elements of fraud?

    Neil, send me an e-mail about title restructuring. Why won’t you deal with homeowners direct? If the homeowner were prior instructed on how to pull their own mortgage searches, could you take that information to construct. What about a program allowing homeowners to purchase a generic kit, with a generic answer including every possible defense but for the kitchen sink, which allows them to start saving for an attorney.

    I have heard an attorney out in Ohio, Mark, is setting up monthly payment plans for homeowners. Runs about half the mortgage payment they would be making to the lender, who has accelerated and will not accept any more payments.

    That is a great tool for the folks, and it could begin with a package.

    Please let me know. I am donating my time to local organizations that will simply charge homeowners the cost of opening the facility, and I will be hosting free workshops.

  43. @ Enraged….I could not have said it better ~ kudos.

  44. @Spitfire,

    Things ARE going to get worse before they get better. And apparently, it’s not bad enough yet for the “divine” intervention. So, brace yourself.

  45. Great points as always.

  46. What is immoral is the INTENTIONAL and systematic destruction of our economy. They did not start building all the FEMA camps eleven years ago (over 800 of them now) and staffing them this month with reports coming out from our National Guard and active duty military that these facilities are set up NOW as prison camps and are being FULLY ACTIVATED, they are NOT emergency management sites for displaced disaster refugees. They have 9 foot barbed wire fencing facing INWARD with turnstiles and boxcars that have shackles in them. All these facilities sit on or very nearby railroad tracks for access. The total number of people that they are able to accomodate nationwide is in the millions. And they are being staffed fully RIGHT NOW as we speak. ASK YOURSELVES WHY???

    Ever wonder why they created a nation of “homelessness”?? Because they have a new “home” for all those displaced families, and now that Posse’ Comitatus has been repealed and the new “Indefinite Detention” without due course Bill S1867 passed our senate and WAS NOT vetoed by the usurper in the oval office as promised, I find it quite surprising that more people are not, or cannot put the pieces of this quite elaborate puzzle together. What is occurring RIGHT NOW in America is classic “When Atlas Shrugged” dialogue and events. After reading that book again, it seems eerily prophetic as to what is happening here in America RIGHT NOW. And its scary as hell.

    While we as a group are struggling to meet our basic needs from day to day becuase the cost of food has risen a staggering 37% in the past 2 years (and don’t kid yourselves, that rate of inflation is a TAX) and prices on all goods including gas essentially doubling in less than 3 years while our incomes have dropped by as much as a whopping 80%.
    Does anyone really think that any of this was accidental? That there were not elaborate plans in place to set these events in motion?

    If you believe for one minute that Washington is listening to any of you, you are seriously out of touch with reality. Give the money to the government??? Are you friggin kidding me?? Because they have been so completely transparent and responsible with the TRILLIONS AND TRILLIONS of dollars that they have already taxed from us? The total amount of currency now afloat EXCEEDS THE TOTAL AMOUNT OF GDP IN THE WORLD. WHich means, that this DEBT can NEVER EVER be paid off.

    Without some divine intervention folks, things are gonna get a lot worse before they get better. If we do not throw those imbeciles in Washington (and I mean ALL of them) out on their ASSES this coming election or sooner by Secession or Nullification, whats coming next will make the foreclosure crisis look like a cake walk.

    If we don’t take the time to look up from the daily struggles we all are facing trying to save our homes and just survive and get involved in some way, we are truly on a path of no return.

  47. I don’t really agree with your analogy “Anyone who has borrowed $100 from Joe, which was paid off by his Aunt Sally, knows that if he pays anyone it is going to be Aunt Sally. You are not going to pay Joe AGAIN on the same debt. Or are you?” That’s what got us in this situation in the first place!

    If Ted borrows $100 from Joe, there is a contract between Joe and Ted. If, subsequently, Aunt Sally decides to tell Joe: “Here’s $100 for the $100 Ted owes you” but there is no contract between Aunt Sally and Ted, Ted must repay Joe, not Aunt Sally. It then becomes up to Joes to pay Aunt Sally back since, otherwise, he will have collected twice.

    The problem is that Joe never had the $100 to start with. Joe got that $100 from a group of people, namely Jack, Steve, Hector and Neil. And Joe never told Ted that the money wasn’t his and that it had borrowed to lend. Joe also never told Ted that, to protect humself from Ted not paying back and Jack, Steve, Hector and Neil from suing him in that event, he had contracted an insurance that would repay the debt regardless who defaulted plus whatever interest and default fees. That’s why Joe charged 10% interest to Ted: Ted, in fact, paid for the premium. So, when Ted defaulted, Joe pocketed the $100 from Aunt Sally, plus the $100 with interest from the insurance company. And, to top it off, he went after Ted in a court of law on a breach of contract allegation. He never told the judge about the insurance, Aunt Sally, the fact that it wasn’t Joe’s money in the first place or anything. He just showed some altered copy of a promisory note signed by Ted in Atlanta, GA, but notarized in Detroit, MI, two hours later…

    In any event, my position all along is that we paid forward the minute we bailed out the banks. Our money was used to pay the bank instead of being used for infrastructures, schools, firefighters and police, the very purposes represented to us as being paid by our taxes. I won’t budge from it.

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