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Debtor’s Revolution: Are Debt Strikes Another Possible Tactic in the Fight Against the Big Banks?

By Sarah Jaffe, AlterNet
Posted on November 3, 2011, Printed on November 11, 2011
http://www.alternet.org/story/152963/debtor%27s_revolution%3A_are_debt_strikes_another_possible_tactic_in_the_fight_against_the_big_banks

 

In the gorgeous, purple-and-green-lit Lower East Side headquarters of the Angel Orensanz Foundation, nearly 300 techies, activists and thinkers gathered, shouting out ideas for social justice-minded Web projects that they would break into small groups to attempt to hash out in a day.

A man in a plaid shirt stood up and told the moderator and the crowd, “I want to create a tool for organizing debt strikes.”

The man was Thomas Gokey, an artist and adjunct professor at Syracuse University, and his idea wound up one of the four “winners” at ContactCon, a conference hosted by Douglas Rushkoff that urged people to think of solutions to the problem of the corporate-controlled Internet—and by extension, the world. The project, nicknamed “Kick-Stopper,” is in the works, but Gokey notes that he’s far from the only person out there suggesting, especially in the wake of Occupy Wall Street’s successes, that it’s time for some more serious, organized direct action around the issue of debt.

“I wanted to do this project because I kept having the same basic conversation with everyone at Zuccotti and everywhere else,” Gokey told me. “When I talk to people about what we could do that would really compel Congress and Wall Street to meet our demands or really alter the current system, we inevitably start discussing what non-cooperation with our own oppression would look like. What does it mean to stop cooperating with the banks? What we inevitably end up describing is some variation of a debt strike, simply ending our own participation in a system that exploits us.”

Are debt strikes, then, the next logical step in the fight against Big Finance’s domination of the 99 percent?

Republic of Debtors

One of the fascinating things about the media dominance of Occupy Wall Street has been how the conversation has shifted away from the deficit-obsession of the last few years. Suddenly the debt that everyone is talking about is personal, individual debt—student loans, mortgages, credit cards and other ways the big banks control our lives.

“That’s one of the things, debt really does tie the 99 percent together. Everyone who is under the 99 percentile saw a debt runup in the 2000s,” Mike Konczal, finance blogger and fellow at the Roosevelt Institute, told me. “You can talk about ‘the richest 1 percent makes this much money,’ but part of what they’re making is debt. Their wealth is a claim on everyone else’s future income.”

That debt was for many years a substitute for wages in the pockets of many Americans. As incomes stagnated or even shrank, credit cards and home equity filled the gap—until the housing bubble popped, leaving millions underwater on their mortgages, owing more than their homes were worth, and unable to get more credit cards or even make the minimum payments on the ones they had.

Many have noted that what happened in 2007 and 2008, when the banks were handed billions in bailouts and secret ultra-low-interest loans, was essentially a capital strike. Finance essentially said that if they didn’t get bailed out, they’d shut down the system—stop lending, jam up the works, and make life miserable for everyone.

Yet those same banks, once bailed out, have flatly refused to do the same for a nation of borrowers thrown into crisis by their actions. Their argument seems simple—the borrowers knew what they were doing, it’s their obligation to pay. Most borrowers agree, and struggle to make payments on credit cards with 20 percent rates and student loans for educations that didn’t help them find jobs, on homes that have plunged in value thanks to predatory lending.

Rep. Hansen Clarke, a Democrat from Michigan, recently noted that in fact a record amount of consumer debt is hurting everyone, writing on his Huffington Post blog: “Such high interest rates — and high levels of household debt more generally — have more of an impact on most Americans’ real disposable income than higher European-style levels of taxation. They reduce Americans’ purchasing power, which means they reduce demand for American goods and services and, in turn, worsen our employment situation. The situation is similar with mortgages and student loans.”

So wiping out some of that debt, most of which is owed to the same banks that broke the economy in the first place, would in fact be an economic stimulus. Why has there been no action?

David Graeber, anthropologist and author of Debt: The First 5000 Years, told Naked Capitalism, “If you want to take a relation of violent extortion, sheer power, and turn it into something moral, and most of all, make it seem like the victims are to blame, you turn it into a relation of debt.”

Strike?

Steven Katz, founder of Debtorboards.com, recently explained to Mother Jones how he’s evaded paying $80,000 in credit card debt. His Web site informs debtors of ways they can fight back against the banks; everything from filing suit against collection agencies to shielding your assets from seizure—and it has more than 10,000 members.

A woman recently posted a video to YouTube (which thus far has over 500,000 views) calling for a debtor’s revolution. “Had you left me alone I would have continued to make my payments in good faith,” she says, but the hike in her interest rate to 30 percent has changed her mind.

“There is power in numbers,” she notes, and that’s where the idea of an organized strike comes in. One person can be hounded, harassed, and scared into submission, but when enough of them work together, could the banks be pressed into backing down?

Stephen Lerner, a veteran organizer with SEIU, recently was called a terrorist for suggesting that perhaps homeowners, stuck with mortgages that are more than the value of their homes and banks that refuse to write down the principal on those loans, should band together and refuse to pay their mortgages until the banks decide to negotiate. A kind of collective bargaining for homeowners whose wealth was wiped out by the financial crisis, those who cannot pay their bills and those who can (for now) but still would benefit by spending that money elsewhere.

“What is the critical mass?” Lerner asked me. “The beauty of the underwater strike is that it would cause a crisis for the banks, which would mean they couldn’t ignore the issue and would be forced to negotiate with homeowners. The big question is what’s the number you’d have to hit to force them to negotiate?”

“The problem is that a debt-strike will take a lot of coordination to make it work,” Thomas Gokey points out, “It can’t just be one person who is willing to risk their financial life, it only works when there are millions of people who are willing to take that risk together, and they are only going to take that risk if they can feel confident that everyone else has got their back.”

That in part is what Gokey hoped to solve by bringing the debt strike idea to ContactCon, but it’s not the only one. Lerner points out that the debt strike also needs targets, demands and an answer to the question, “Who pays?”

“There should be debt forgiveness, but these guys–the student loan profiteers–should eat it, not the government and taxpayers,” he points out. “The banks should pay because they destroyed the economy, they sucked 18-year-olds into predatory loans they are stuck with for life.”

Banks have already, Mother Jones notes, written off some $90 billion in credit card debt since 2008, taking it off their books because it’s unlikely to ever be recovered. Some nonpayment is built into the system—as Graeber notes in his book Debt: The First 5000 Years, “A lender is supposed to assume a certain degree of risk. If all loans, no matter how idiotic, were still retrievable—if there were no bankruptcy laws, for instance—the results would be disastrous. What reason would lenders have not to make a stupid loan?”

Aside from the fact, of course, that we wound up with an $8 trillion housing bubble from just those sorts of bad loans, there is in the US one type of debt that cannot be discharged in bankruptcy, that follows you for life and that has the full power of the US government behind its collection.

I’m speaking, of course, of student loans.

The $1 Trillion Problem

The student debt bubble is officially over $1 trillion, and as Lerner noted, it largely consists of loans made to 18-year-olds under the premise that education will help them earn enough money to pay off their loans. Yet the job market is terrible (and nearly twice as terrible for young people as it is for everyone else) and meanwhile cuts to public education, both ideologically motivated, from conservatives, and because of state budget crises caused by the economic crisis the banks created, have made that education much more expensive.

In the spirit of the now-famous WeAreThe99Percent Tumblr blog and inspired by Occupy Wall Street, there is now an OccupyStudentDebt Tumblr, where students and grads post their photos and stories of their debt. “The student loan bubble may not burst with a bang, but it is slowly suffocating us,” the sidebar reads.

But student debt, as Mike Konczal has noted, is literally debt you carry for life. It has no statute of limitations, cannot be discharged under bankruptcy and the government can literally deduct it from your Social Security check. ProPublica recently investigated the struggle of severely disabled borrowers, legally allowed to have their student debts forgiven, to actually get their loans discharged.

Konczal wrote:

“As credit card and housing debt become unbearable, there’s a point at which they get written down. That point is too high, but because of various laws regarding debt collection that shift the strategy and potential end results between the actors, there’s a logic to it. As far as I can tell, there’s simply no equivalent chart, or even logic, for student loans. Because of legal choices we’ve made in how to set up this relationship, it stays forever, is virtually impossible to discharge under hardship, churns fees when it goes bad, and creditors can get to anything, including Social Security, to get it repaid. Meanwhile, we have a Great Depression-like event that is throwing college graduates into a labor market that is far too weak.”

And defaults are up anyway. Phil Izzo at the Wall Street Journal reported in August that 11.2 percent of student loans were more than 90 days past due—and if it kept rising, could pass credit card debt, which is at 12.2 percent but is on a decline.

Obama’s new plan to help students with their loans will provide some relief, but only for current students. Those who have already graduated—the majority of the student loan bubble—are ineligible. Rep. Clarke suggested making private student loans, “particularly those written under unfair terms” dischargeable in a bankruptcy, which is a nice sentiment. But right now there’s absolutely zero likelihood of this do-nothing Congress taking action, and Occupy Wall Street has proven that a sizable number of Americans are in a mood to do things for themselves rather than waiting for government action.

So a student debt strike might actually be the most powerful statement to make, as there are literally no other options for those stuck with the burden—many of whom form the backbone of the occupations around the country.

But Konczal warned that it’s also very hard to win a battle with the government, which backs the student loans even if they are held by private banks. “The way game theorists think about bargaining is that it’s very important to understand how patient each side is. The side that’s more desperate will lose out. In theory the government has an infinite amount of patience. It has no kind of fidicuary cash logic, it also has people with guns and boots and jail cells and the ability to literally take out of your paycheck,” he told me.

Risking Your Financial Life?

Even without the power of the federal government behind your debts, damage to your credit rating can have long-term consequences that anyone thinking about a debt strike should consider.

Kate Sternwood (not her real name), who defaulted on her student loans after leaving the University of Massachusetts before completing her degree, told me, “My credit is so bad that I can’t even do things to get good credit.” Collection agencies hounded her for private loans within the first year of leaving school; she noted that it took 5 years for the Department of Education to do the same, to tell her “We can garnish your wages.”

Colleen Williams explained what happened when she couldn’t pay her loans: “When I went into default, the government began by confiscating my tax returns – if you have any outstanding debts with the government, including student loans and child support, they will keep your tax return money & supposedly apply it towards your debt, which I don’t think they do, ever.”

She continued, “So after years of this happening, they finally sent my defaulted loans to a collection agency.  Two years after that–it does take quite a while for them to catch up to you, but they will definitely catch up to you–they started legal action to garnish my wages.  Most people think that’s not that big of a deal, but it is absolutely humiliating to explain to your work that you let your student loan debt go because of unemployment and now you can’t even make payments on it, they want the full $35,000 (or whatever amount you owe) or they will just forcefully take it from you.”

“I actually started a rehab program that brings you out of collections and puts you with a regular bank,” Sternwood said. “I paid six of the nine months of the rehab program before I got laid off in the middle of 2009.”

A report from the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau in July of this year [PDF] said of credit ratings:

 

“Credit scores can have a significant impact on a consumer’s financial life. Lenders rely on scores extensively in decision making, including the initial decisions of whether to lend and what loan terms to offer, for most types of credit, including mortgages, auto loans, and credit cards. Credit scores also influence the marketing offers that consumers receive, such as offers for credit cards. Further, credit scores affect account-management decisions, like raising or lowering credit limits or changing interest rates. A good credit score can mean access to a wide range of credit products at the better rates available in the market, while a bad credit score can lead to greatly reduced access to credit and much higher borrowing costs.”

 

The report also notes that rating consumer credit and selling access to those ratings is a $1 billion business—one quarter of which is selling consumers’ ratings back to them.

Elizabeth Warren, Senate candidate, inventor of the CFPB, and bankruptcy law expert, wrote in 2009 that credit card companies had effectively gotten bankruptcy law changed in 2005 to make credit card debts harder to discharge in a bankruptcy filing as well, and pointed out the power of the other side: “Credit card companies can hire lawyers and develop extensive debt collect departments.”

Asked about the idea of a debt strike, Sternwood said, “I think the people who would be the first to strike would be the people who have already defaulted.” Once your credit is already tanked, perhaps the idea of giving it another hit isn’t quite as threatening.

Making It Happen

At ContactCon, the debt strike group discussed what would be necessary to help organize debt strikes, and debated whether the best plan was to hold money in escrow or to funnel it back into the economy when not paying. The group wound up growing, and was nominated as one of the ideas people would like to see happen. Attendees voted on four, and Kick-Stopper was selected as one of Contact’s “Most Actionable” ideas.

“We’ve tentatively planned on holding a 54-hour hackathon later in November or in early December to start building the platform and continue to work out the idea,” Gokey says. “I don’t think there is any need to re-create campaigns like Move Your Money. A debt strike takes things to the next logical level and would have a much bigger impact than just moving our personal savings accounts, it would stick a wrench in the gears of capital and bring everything to a grinding halt. It would give us tremendous power to back up our demands, but it would take a complex grassroots democratic organization to succeed.”

Many ideas were discussed for the platform, which would act as a sort of social network for horizontally organized, networked strikes. Users could possibly share their personal stories as well as which banks hold their debt, and coordinate with other debtors in their area or who owe money to the same bank or for the same problem to maximize impact.

In many ways, the combination of online/offline activism is the hallmark of the Occupy Wall Street movement, organized with the help of hacker groups like Anonymous and promoted through citizen media like livestreams, camera phone videos and Twitter, but solidly grounded in real-world action. Creating a Web application to organize something like a debt strike would be another step in marrying direct action with the ability of the Web to connect people across the country.

“Contact is about unlocking the potential of the networked era, and a strong networked organizational structure is what we will need to maintain a large-scale debt strike of millions of people,” Gokey said. “In a lot of ways, a debt-strike is a low-tech thing, but our networked technology can help us organize it.”

Sarah Jaffe is an associate editor at AlterNet, a rabblerouser and frequent Twitterer. You can follow her at @seasonothebitch.

53 Responses

  1. A student debt strike threat is already underway.

    http://occupystudentdebtcampaign.org/

  2. please watch c span now terrible stuff demarco is a fat liar he is horrible needs to go to jail for stealing our homes

    watch ZEITGEIST: ADDENDUM
    http://zeitgeistmovie.com/

  3. Neil.
    How Can i prove my credit card loan was securitized and it suppose to be a prospectus for an asset trust my loan is in? How do I know it is there?

  4. I have just finished reading… “Freddie Mac Interventions in Mortgage Default: Policies and Practices to Prevent Home Loss and Lower Costs.” http://www.freddiemac.com/news/pdf/interventions_in_mortgage_default.pdf

    I must admit, that this is a very in depth study that they performed and it is very well written. It is so in depth that it can also apply to many other areas in the problematic mortgage market. However, as well written and in depth as it is, they failed to mention what really goes on in a person’s mind who finds themselves in default on their mortgage, regardless of what stage of the default process they happen to be in.

    The report attempts to shed some light on why borrowers choose not to contact their lender or loan servicer, who after all is only trying to help. Yeah right! Now let’s look at some of the REAL REASONS why the lender wants you to contact them…

    The Freddie Mac report cites the following example “If a borrower’s monthly mortgage payment is $1,000.00 and they are one month behind in their payment, then the lender will help them to catch up by amortizing the $1,000.00 payment areas over 5 months bringing the borrowers monthly payment up to $1,200.00 per month for the next five months. Thats very big of them LOL.
    Don’t they get it? If the borrower fell behind on his mortgage payment because he had to pay $1,000.00 per month, how is he going to make a $1,200 per month mortgage payment?

    For those who have already tried, loan modifications have, for a variety of reasons, become highly suspect, as such, are for the most part, not worth the paper they are written on and in actuality cost the borrower in more ways than one.

    Another reason why many borrowers don’t make contact with the lender or servicer is…

    The Clerk representing the lender has absolutely no authority to enter into a loan modification with the borrower. They are only allowed to gather information from the borrower, which means that they are updating their information on you, in other words, the flow of information is travelling in only one direction, FROM YOU TO THEM.

    In the mean time, you don’t have anything to hang your hat on when it comes to knowing if you have a deal worked out or not because they lack the authority to make a deal. If you say I will only talk to the person with authority to deal with me, they will tell you that they can put you in touch with that person but they first need to ask you a few questions.

    Assuming that a borrower in his/her innocence agrees to conform to the lenders loan modification procedures, and are ultimately put in contact with the loan mod decision maker, that’s when the borrowers troubles really begin.

    First the loan mod “expert” requires the borrower to complete new financial disclosures and documentation. Taking this requirement at face value, it seems like a normal thing to ask of the borrower. Don’t you believe it!

    The loan mod expert already knows that the borrower is in dire financial straight otherwise they wouldn’t be talking to each other. Plus, you can bet they have already reported the borrower’s poor payment record to the 3 main credit reporting agencies. So why do they need new loan documents and a new credit report when they already know the results of your new loan modification application? Think about that.

    If their new loan modification program is really designed to help the borrower, then why not simply alter the original loan amount? and a new monthly payment schedule on your original documents? Once the changes are made, both lender and borrower initial those changes with all of the original terms and conditions remaining in place. If they are so honest, why not take that simple approach?

    Here is why they want and need you to sign new loan documents, (this is assuming of course that the borrower gets approved for a new loan modification in the first place).

    They need the new documents signed because once you have completed and signed them, you have effectively superseded and deleted, all problematic paperwork and clauses that presently exist for the bank in your original documents, such as, Robo signers, forged documents, wrong lender foreclosing on you, forged notaries that could possibly work against the bank if you decided to fight a foreclosure claim against you, the list goes on and on.

    The banks are not stupid. While you are in the process of working out a new loan mod with them, they are still going through with their foreclosure process, because they already know you won’t qualify for a loan modification. You can bet that the new loan modification documents will not contain any of the discrepancies that were in your favor in your old loan documents.

    Quite literally, once you enter into a new loan modification with them, they have effectively neutralized any legal recourse you may previously have had against them had you chosen to fight them.

    In addition, the mere fact you are talking to them and dealing with them in the first place, means that you are now officially recognizing them as the lender of record, which previously they may not have been.

    I could go on and on with other examples. Suffice it to say, get yourself a good lawyer. If you are in need of a loan workout, then you would be doing yourself more justice to do a loan workout (payment plan) with a lawyer regarding his fees. Practically all foreclosure attorneys will co-operate with you in that regard.

  5. yes—under AHMSI v HUD—AHMSI and similarly situated servicers cannot own note–cannot release debt or cancel note–cannot convey property nor quash subpoenas issued to depose anybody–absent clear authorization of the purported trustee—and hes got to prove trust included the note in question—-a release is simply a side agreement in nature of indemnity—should have note cancelled or etclost note affidavit by trustee as i read implications og ahmsi v hud

    am i expressing your point?

  6. DCB

    Releases??? Have you heard of Robo-signing????

  7. lies is all they tell,

    Foreclosure victims have a right to all records — they are not getting.

    American Tragedy.

  8. they use like a club–extortion

  9. go out and search AHMSI V HUD–or american home mortgage servicing v hud—————if you have a servicer supposedly repping a trust–the case suggests the servicer has no standing–at least not enough to eirther transfer property to hud or get the FHA insurance–this is significant and ties in with he stuff on this site about trustees abandoning the properties to the collection agencies–and seemingly why hud will not pay–if hud will not pay servicers why should your home be taken from you and given to them–so i guess you could say HUD has drawn a picture for you–quiet title unless they can show letter of authority from trustee

  10. please i do not undderdstand most people foreclosed on in 2010 did not know what was happening and have moved on why dont they worry about what is happening now. my sister was foreclosed on in 2010 she wants nothing to do with this review . she has moved on???? i am still in my house stressed daily why they do something about the current climate and fix things now????

  11. I do nou understand –you signed a note and mortgage and paid it off—-but did not get the note back marked paid or cancelled?

    what about release of mortgage?

    do you still have a mortgage on your property–if so you need to file quiet title i think–which may be why law addresses the issue?? im curious?

  12. I have a question – if the originator sold the loan and didn’t endorse the note (at all-not even in blank) and it can be proven, and if the originator did NOT record an assignment (ever) and it’s been NINE years, why can’t we go after them? They have been paid and according to my note and mortgage, once the note has been satisfied, they are required by law to record a SATISFACTION. In my state, PA, if you request them in writing to record a satisfaction, and they don’t, you can sue them up to the amount of the original loan.

  13. @ CARRIE

    DO YOU HAVE A CITE or site that is different from this general complaint ——–????

    this may very well be an old standard form–but im not sure that there is a difference???

    please let me know—-i want to see the source and format of anything else purporting to be an occ complaint form

  14. @CARIE

    your point is extremely important and that statement appears to me to be completly extraneous to anything having to do with this. Further please see below which I copied off the official OCC site. The material I have copied off and have downloaded in print hardcopy has no such affirmation.

    See below please –the certification just says your statements are true
    The pdf print copy off this site has formatting but all language follows the verbiage below–I am deeply suspicious of some of the motivations that people have to state things like there is no review process and what you have referred to which i also have seen earlier last week–as well as assertions that you have to sit and wait for the OCC to mail to you and that you have to file with the servicer etc—not as i read the actual site directions now

    The following is extracted from the OCC website verbatim as of November 8, 2011.

    OMB Control No. 1557-0232
    Expiration Date: 12/31/2011
    CUSTOMER COMPLAINT FORM
    Please fill in this form completely. Mail or fax this completed complaint form to:
    Office of the Comptroller of the Currency
    Customer Assistance Group
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    Have you tried to resolve your complaint with your financial institution? The OCC recommends that you attempt to resolve your complaint with your financial institution first. Please contact your financial institution to allow them the opportunity to resolve your issue(s).
    If your complaint involves more than one financial institution, you will need to submit a separate complaint form for each institution involved. You will receive separate case numbers for each institution.
    Please Note:
    • We cannot act as a court of law or as a lawyer on your behalf
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    The Account Owner/Holder should complete this section. * – Indicates Required Fields
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    What is the best time to contact your representative? Morning Afternoon Evening
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    FINANCIAL INSTITUTION OR COMPANY INFORMATION THAT IS SUBJECT OF THE
    COMPLAINT
    Helpful Hint: If you do not know the name of your financial institution, check your bank or credit card statement. The financial institution’s name will be indicated on the statement.
    *Name of Financial Institution or Company:
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    Phone:
    *Type of Account(s) (Check all that apply): Deposit Account (Checking, Savings) Credit Card
    Loan Product (Consumer, Mortgage, Home Equity) Asset Management (Trust Accounts)
    Consumer Leasing Non-Deposit Account (Investments) Insurance Other
    Have you tried to resolve your complaint with your financial institution or company? Yes No
    If Yes, when? How? Phone Mail In Person Other
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    Page 4 of 5
    COMPLAINT INFORMATION
    Describe events in the order they occurred, including any names, phone numbers, and a full description of the problem with the amount(s) and date(s) of any transaction(s). Be as brief and complete as possible to make the explanation clear. Do not include personal or confidential information such as your social security, credit card, or account numbers.
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    PRIVACY ACT STATEMENT
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    solicited to provide the Office of the Comptroller of the Currency (OCC) with data that is necessary and useful in reviewing requests received from individuals for assistance in their interactions with national banks or federal savings associations (thrifts). The provision of requested information is voluntary. However, without such information, the ability to complete a review or to provide requested assistance may be hindered. It is intended that the information obtained through this solicitation will be used within the OCC and provided to the national bank or federal savings association (thrift) that is the subject of the complaint or inquiry. Additional disclosures of such information may be made to: (1) other third parties when required or authorized by statute or when necessary in order to obtain additional information relating to
    the complaint or inquiry; (2) other governmental, self-regulatory, or professional organizations having:
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    parties when required or authorized by statute.
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    https://appsec.helpwithmybank.gov/olcc_form/

  15. sorry—I meant property NOTED—not NOTES…

  16. Sorry I should have mentioned I moved all this and said screw the banks when I discovered they were modification defrauding me, November 2009. Two years ago. I wasted no time and told everyone I knew in trouble to go buy Kevin Trudeaus book and do what they felt was justified.

  17. This is the sentence in the OCC review paperwork that really bothers me and makes me think it’s all more BS:

    “…I affirm that I am the borrower or co-borrower(s) of the mortgage loan on the property notes in this document…”

    I am NOT going to be signing something that says that—because to me it is reaffirming (with your sig.), an unsecured, highly questionable, “alleged” debt that they want you to validate as being REAL.

    Does anyone else think that?

    I just don’t trust anything these people do.

  18. I also moved my checking for both business and personal to a credit union and the only accounts I kept that I owe are at the credit union, and that is only one the second on my house, I took out due to the banksters causing the economic crimes and lost business revenue.

  19. JI have already said “screw the banks” they are the reason I am hurting and tried the Kevin Trudeau Debt Cures and it works. Read Kevin Trudeaus book. I wrote off 25,000.00 and 7.500.00 doing this. I had no choice after the bank crimes and when I learned of their misguided deeds I decided to screw them. I have always believed in paying my debts, and never thought I would think this way, but I have learned just how evil these banks are and what they deserve and screw them.

  20. The following is not legal advice. it is preliminary ans speculative analysis based upon sketchy information–which itself is speculative. The reporters are attempting to ascertain what is happening but do not take it to the bank. Best take it to an attorney well-schooled in ADMINISTRATIVE LAW.

    The following appeared on November 11, 2011–authored by HUFFPOST–which please be mindful is a part of the MURDOCH press and so lacks credibility in my book–and may be merely designed to confuse. But taken at face value the one piece worth noting is:
    ” The restitution payment process is designed to be easier and quicker than a foreclosure review scheme announced by the Office of the Comptroller of the Currency last week, the source said. Under that program, mortgage servicers are sending out letters this month to 4 million former homeowners asking them if they want their foreclosures audited, a process that could take months. Receiving a restitution payment from the new possible settlement would not preclude borrowers from suing their banks or asking the OCC to review their foreclosure, the source said, stressing that the payments are solely for bad servicing and are not meant to make borrowers whole if they were wrongfully foreclosed.”

    So now there are two distinct programs–one actually announced by OCC–and for which a form can be obtained online at the official OCC website–along with a description of the 2-tier ADMINISTRATIVE appeals process. This REAL LIVE program is designed to award damages to make wrongfully foreclosed people whole. This program applies only to foreclosures in 2009-2010. At least somethoing about the foreclosure and/or deed in lieu DIL had to occur 2009-2010. The 3 obvious classes of such people that can be generally described are those:
    1) veterans on active duty in that time frame that were foreclosed.
    2) victims who were engaged in some phase of loan modification negotiations but were foreclosed while so doing, and
    3) vicims who were foreclosed or DILed out of their homes by collectiona agencies [aka loan servicers] using defective documentation –most notably docx “created” by a rob-signing process

    This is not an exhaustive list. Homes seized because they were next door–or the wrong houses etc would also fall into this class–which underscores one point. The info posted on websites asserts that loan #’s MUST be provided–how will that be possible if your home was accidentally seized despite the fact you had no loan? So basically the specific “requirements” on the OCC claim forms should be seen as guidelines–the rule-making process may not be fully effective at this point–notice and comment may be defective so even the so-called rules may be appealed in connection with the administrative review process.

    Now lets discuss the REAL OCC program wth a view to each class –in summary.
    Obviously vets whose homes were seized in defiance of federal are the most sympathetic group and damage claims for them should be pursued most agressively. The two prong proofs of 1)”entitlement” [ie I was a vet on active duty when my home was seized] and 2) “amount of damages is easier –it shuld be relatively easy to prove the active duty and date the foreclosure activities occured–ANY overlap should trigger a claim–although the reviewers likely will even try to squeeze a guy with both legs blown off–send the photos ok!

    Damages should be easier–the SPIRIT of the program is to make victims whole. So how?
    1) Vets Iv spoken with received large upfront signing bonuses –$25,000-$300,000 depending on rank, training, initial enlistment or re-up. Given the size of these payments it is not unusual for the vets to have plunked down 25% downpayments. The predatory collection agencies appear to have seized homes from these soldiers even if they were making payments–hard to fight the 800 number and defend while you are doing night patrol in a black-zone in Baghdad. So equity in the home —or amount of downpayment is a certain damage claim. The guys Iv spooken with also noticed when they got back that everything from their toothpast to Grandad’s gun collection conveniently disappeared without trace–along with all records of purchase. The Administrative law process does not demand the anachronistic rules of evidence–if your evidence is credible it comes into the decision-making. Hearsay is OK. [Lawyers hate admin proceedings because its a more level playing field–beware the whiners]
    How to prove damages? The vet should make an affidavit listing ALL her stuff–item by item. A verifying affidavit by a credible 2nd party is good–but not necessary. Get grandma to state what she saw–let her list the heirlooms. Get another affidavit from the local furniture ealer to state what the replacement cost for these items of furniure and applicances would be. NOT FMV used–its not even certain that there is an FMV of cloth-covered furniture or bedding or clothing because of bedbugs. For vets go with replcement cost. A range is needed—-insurance companies have algorhythms –based on value and size of house and incomes etc–what are people similarly situated likely to own and what type of replacement cost. A person living in a $150,000 house is likely to have bought midrange items. Insurance adjusters have tables and can estimate the amount of a fire loss—-they either do replacement or FMV dependening on the policy coverage–go with the replacement but place in evidence the FMV too. For heirlooms which the preservers put 1st in their trunks along with the guns etc—–its harder–document and appraise.

    Now be brave for the vets—-claim everything at max value. They earned it and you have the high-ground. Hard to say the vet was COMPLICIT.

    Now Claas 2: the party that the collection agency demanded default as a condition to “modification” —–these are fairly sympathetic. Often the story goes: “we were working towards modification–sent the docs 4 times –told dont worry about the notices on the door–went to work at 8AM and when I got home at 6PM –my house was empty!” In my view if you can prove this “entitlement” fact pattern, then follow the vets’ proof of damages process–affidavits if no invoices. Not surprisingly invoices along with family albums disappeared too. Do your best to support the big ticket items with credit card records etc—but dont drop the claim because no receipts–it is a reasonable assumption you were not sleeping on the floor. Now lets note—the collection agencies charge for every keystroke–every copy—so you should too. I recently outfitted an apt–it cost for everything from ice-cube trays to toilet paper [not to be confused with robo-signer docx–which used a higher grade of paper]. You list everything down to thumbtacks and that half-used jar of mayo!
    And lets not forget any professional fees incurred during the modification process–and costs of reconstituting your income tax files.

    The 3rd class–those who were induced or intimidated into abandoning or otherwise lost homes via the speedy foreclosure process guaranteed by use of no questions asked rob-signing.
    Maybe these folks are not as sympatheitc victims as the shell-shocked vets or the tricked beievers in Tim Geithners mock-HAMP pretend program, but they were victims of deception nevertheless.

    The 3rd class–victims of faulty doumentation—these people are in effect assessing penal damges for collection agencies abusing due process–subverting the court systems etc. Basiclly ungluing the framework of modern civil property law and the concept of perjury.
    How to prove it—if the documents were created by some notorious outfit–use the newspapers to demonstrate that fact–attach the articles –links etc. Make sure you note if LPS/DOCX and/or MERS had a hand in the process because they signed Consent Orders promissing not to do bad things–albeit without admitting they did [THANKS FOR NOTHING OCC] If there was a “corrective filing” it pretty much cinches this issue. So look to the Recorders office for a 2nd assignment of mortgage—if they amended the supporting documentation for the complaint etc. These cases are the toughest to establish the “entitlement” aspect–because of these proof issues. One might suggest that because Linda Green’s several signatures appeared on the front page of an October 2010 NYT that any docx signed by her is bogus–but technically the reviewers may not see it that way–but try anyway. In my view her indiscretion is so egregious and widespread that the burden of proof on her signature should shift to the collection agency seeking to stand on her signature–the appeals officers may be inclined to agree. After all it is the constitution that she undermined. And how are we supposed to know what the real Linda Green signatre looks like–the real one is most easily proved by the servicer–not the victim. MERS’ involvement with its endless list of VPs etc same–MERS has the list of authorized persons at the time–and should be able to provide that –we do not—let em publish the list OCC –please–or else shift the burden of proof now rather than after the fact as we appeal this issue innthe DC District Court–and demand all cases where they did not so shift the burden be set aside.

    Lets speed it up and get it over with.

    If MERS did not actually properly appoint anyone then lets have it be known now—or just make use of MERS in Assignments of Mortgage per se defective to move things along.

    So lets assume participation by MERS and/or DOCX/LPS was per se bad documentation for arguments sake–or corrective documentation was filed, so our victim of faulty documentation has met the “entitlement” prong. Now what were the damages?

    Well this is arguably a tad more grey than damages for the others. The others flat out did not expect to lose everything over a day at work–either at Wall Mart or in Baghdad. The faulty documentation folks may or may not have. It is a facts and circumstances case it seems to me. If the victim was apprised by her lawyer that the case would be pstponed pending corrective documentation–assuming it was possible to correct–ie the collection agency had a provavble right. [by no means certain, see AHMSI v HUD Federal District Court in Texas–AHMSI had no standing to own notes or pass title to real estate in name of trusts] ——then this victim was equally as SURPRISED as the other 2 classes. You need an affidavit as to state of mind here at least –and the same damages hold as the others. The attorneys’ word should be set out in affidavit. Lacking an attorney–the defendant victim should state whether she was aware that the fake documentation was an issue and expected it to be corrected before seizure. Of course this must be factual–sworn.

    Then proceed to damages.

    This brings up the item noted at the beginning–the ALMOST AGREED AG deal. Now Im sorry but Im in the ranks of the skeptics on this one. We have heard the AGs have a deal almost as often as we have heard Europe’s troubles are over. There is no deal. But lets say there was a deal as referred to. Is a “safe harbor” payment by somebody adequate?

    I am absolutely speculating here –but it seems to me that the $1000-1500 being discussed here is totally distinct and separate from the OCC damages. The AG purported almost deal is punitive in nature–the OCC real deal is compensatory economic damages. The 2 are additive and in no way should anyone waive anything by agreeeing to receive the AGs punitive damages.

    So make your claims for compensatory damages–as innovatively as possible and just wait fot the maybe AG deal—-which may devolve state by state–so in NY you might get a check for $1500 but in Ohio—you are much more likely to be awarded with a prorata share of a very large SHAFT. In either case –dont hold your breath–and focus on the OCC REAL DEAL—-the AG almost deal sounds like a nasty distraction to me–more bait n switch to keep people from filing OCC claims

    Now on OCC claim PROCESS. The OCC site now clearly sets ou the form–either online or pdf print. I would recommend the completion of the printed form myself–along with a witness to the fact I placed the form in the envelope a sent it registered mail to OCC. PROVE NOT ONLY THAT YOU SENT IT BUT WHAT YOU SENT.

    Also as a practicuioner of admin law for 35 years, including a few in IRS —– this is not advice–but a warning to use an atty–and a good one versed in admin law—

    There is a doctrine called exhaustion of administrative remedies. Basically the doctrine is that you must make the factual record at the bottom —lay out all arguments there in detail–or waive them. All adnmin determinations MUST be subject to review at the discretion of the claimant. Possibly in this instance the servicers may also be able to appeal–its not yet clear to me. Certainly they will appeal any adverse decision by a reviewr or 2nd tier hearing officer if the record is incomplete, the decision arbitrary etc.

    So 1) make a complete record at the reviewr level—-everything–attach support affidavits, invoices etc–anything that establishes either “entitlement” to damages or the amount of damages. No matter what.
    2) be prepared to appeal –in all liklihood the reviwers will be doing data entry if you do not use the electronic submission–im skeptical of the electonic submission because I do not see how you put the necessary proofs in–basically it is an aplication for a safe harbor award–something like the minimum necssary to shup you up–and you will not really be able to claim exfhaustion of remedies or a complete record—-the reviwer will deny this or award reduced amounts because you f=did not put proof on the record and then its too late to supplement the record. Iv seen attys with decades experience lose on this—–it is a huge trap for unwary attys–the evidence gate along with the argument gate closes hard when you hit that submit button—it may get you your $500 faster but its a quick way to toss away a good $15000 CLAIM–dont fall for the trap–warn all the attys –make the record at the reviewer level even if you expect them to ignore it.

    The claim goes to the OCC if the servicer is named—not just the servicer–I suggest you send to both, as if serving a complaint. If the servicer is not named, dont fret send it to OCC also as well as your state consumer protection and FTC–lose nothing but postage and copy costs.

    If the claim is denied in part or full then there is an appeal ON THE RECORD before the reviewer. No additional iformation can be offered except to respond narrowly to the reasons stated for denial. Likely these reasons will have been made by the servicers’ employees who will file opposition to the well-constructed claim. the claimant should be entitled to see the opposition as a matter of due process ans Adminstrative Procedures Act or its equivalent as adopted by OCC.

    the appeals officer decision itself is subject to review by the OCC Ombudsman. And that decision or the lower officers determination will be a final appealable Order by the agency that can be taken to a District Court. It is unclear to this writer at this time oif appeal to the Ombudsman is in lieu of appeal to the District Court —

    Generally speaking the foregoing is the way federal administrative processes operate—however nothing herein is intended nor represented to be authoritiative—except the need to get a qualified attorney’s advice BEFORE HITTING THAT SUBMIT BUTTON.

    The sort of AG deal is completely different–there is no process –there is no agreement. If someone confuses the two and simply inserts in the OCC form something akin to
    “Ill take the AG agreed $1000–then the claim will be subject to denial and no real opportunity to appeal may exist–because no basis for damages will have been set out.

    On the other hand if OCC should wish to simplify and expedite the program it should clearly state in a public ruling—“if you qualify for relief, you may elect to accept as liquidated damages the amount of $X in lieu of a detailed proof of specific dameges.”

    So far OCC has not adopted this procedural option–it should. Get a good attorney if you are not one–if you are grab your admin law hornbook and red it cover to cover ASAP.

  21. @ Tony i am also part of the group that were told in 2010 by wells fargo that we had to stop paying our mortgage if we wanted to apply for a hamp loan. i have a web site with homwowners just like us yet wells fargo keeps denying this to everyone

    http://www.complaint.tv/wells_fargo_loan_modification_scam-2512.html

  22. @tony do you have any info on wells fargo. i had found out my loan was securitized during my modification proccess in 2009 when i was being denied a homp loan by my investor. so i asked who my investor was and i was told they cant do that and i asked why. maybe he was not suppose to tell me but the guy on the phone said my loan was sold and mixed up with other loans and the put in a blender and then sold as stock. oh i said??? not realy understanding yet. i had just found some webs sites back then thats how i found out to ask for the investor.

    as of right now i am in the foreclosure but have not got my court date yet. so i am using this time to educate me. i have found out my appraisal was done fraudulent as well as my application. i was a distance buyer and she took advantage that we wouldnt see the application until closing and she (wells fargo mortgage broker) was right. actually the 1st time i ever actually saw the paper motgage application was after the closing was done all papers were signed already. i dont even have a copy of any of the mortgage papers i signed??? then of ocurse modification fraud. losing my paper work and moving my files out of review.

    wells fargo always answers “this is an atempt to collect a debt”

    so i am not sure how their being the debt collector has a role in my foreclosure. so if you have any info let me know.

  23. Thanks so much, tony—I really appreciate your sharing this info—very kind of you!

  24. Carrie,

    If you have a former “Indymac” loan, then your loan is dis-chargeable. I would get your attorney to read DBNTC v FDIC # 09-3852 in the california federal district court central division. Then get him to understand what QFC v NON QFC.

    Have him understand they are debt collectors, servicing for no one, and that the trust is dead. If he thinks that it isn’t true, then tell him that DBNTC went into probate for all trusts so that it could get immunity. This case number is 30-2009-00300317PR-TR-LJC in SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA ORANGE COUNTY.

    Any lawyer should know that you do not go to probate unless something is dead and you are trying to finalize the end issues. Have your lawyer read these issues and then have him write and contact the bank and foreclosure mill and warn then not to take action until these can resolve that they did not do any of this, plus that they were not deemed general creditor by the FDIC.

    Also have him read MBIA v FDIC # 09-01011 in the UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. This case MBIA and insurance company for the securitizations for the indymac trust filed suit but lost because they were even labeled n general creditor by the FDIC. MBIA says some interesting things in this case to describe how the insurance works when there is a so called default by an home owner.

    If you file BK make sure you label your mortgage as that it is disputed contingent on the debt and then again on your assets. That means if you sue them for a million dollars make sure you put that in your schedules, so that they don’t say you didn’t do that and now your barred.

    Then when they file for relief of the automatic stay, make sure your lawyer gets them dismissed for lack of subject matter jurisdiction. Do not agree to let the BK decide on this matter in an adversary matter. Just block them from the automatic stay. When you get your discharge then if you want sue the pants off them,if you want.

    NOW THIS IS JUST INFORMATION, PLEASE YOU AND YOUR LAWYER GO OVER THIS INFORMATION AND ANY OTHER THAT YOU HAVE TO MAKE SURE THAT THIS IS CORRECT, AND NOT JUST SOMEONE WRITING ON HERE TO TAKE YOU OFF PATH. ALSO MAKE SURE YOU ATTORNEY IS TRUE AND NOT GOING TO SIDE LINE YOU EITHER.

  25. thank you everuone all your comments are truly helpful and also helps in the feeling not alone department. up until june when my husband lost his job i was paying all our bills on time. as i waited for a mortgage modification from wells fargo and then of course they denied me my mod and put me in foreclosure. when he lost his job it was hard i could not afford to pay my bills anymore. only the electric, food, and phone. yes it was tuff and yes the phone rings alot didnt think i would ever defsault on my credit card loans but what are you suppose to do keep paying and not eat??? then you die from not eating and cant pay. so is there something about life i a not getting
    thank you about the credit score thing. i felt when i paid everything on time that my credit score meant something. it helped when you need a car. i have 2004 mazda3 with 7k left to pay. the aluminum engine just cracked. amazing i have 13 yr old and 10 yr old dodge and explorer??? guess they dont make very goos cars mazda. so now we need transportation what do we do??? thanks wells fargo anf the rest of the bunch fro causing good hearted responsible people to be helpless.

    and yes i have to do a BK again other then claiming the mortgage as unsecured what happens with assest we have a 2010 toyota ( a gift) anda 2005 harley cant find any info about my vehcles on the florida bk google???

  26. @Carie,

    I understand what you’re going through: when I decided to file in federal court after having studied all my options, I was really nervous. So much so that, right after that, I had a breakdown for a couple of months. And then all of a sudden, a weight was lifted off my shoulders.

    You know a lot and you understand a lot of what has been happening and what was done to us. As soon as you file, focus on one strategy and how much you can actually say and put all your energy into it. Insist in BK court that your mortgage loan is unsecured and dischargeable. There will be an automatic stay, which will prevent the foreclosure for a while but expect Deutsche Bank to file a motion to lift the stay. That’s where they will have the most difficulty: proving that they are entitled to it and that they have standing to foreclose. Your attorney will handle it for you but you’ll probably need to be present at the BK hearing. Make sure that you read absolutely every pleading word for word and don’t hesitate to question everything you don’t understand or that you think is untrue. Force Deutsche to go back to day one of your loan to demonstrate its involvement and standing. Hard work but, from what I understand, you already have a lot of the information. If Deutsche produces info that clashes with yours, ask the hard questions.

    Good luck and keep us posted. Chances are, you’ll be advised to limit the amount of information you can give us but let us know what you can without prejudicing your case. It’s going to be a long battle. You’re strong. You’ll prevail.

  27. @Enraged,

    It’s me, my husband, 2 kids, 4 pets…
    I was planning on doing a BK because they are playing games with me and won’t come up with accounting and proof of real creditor…I’ll probably do Chap 7 and then they have to prove real creditor…I know Deutsche is not the creditor—but that’s what they are trying to say…that’s all they come up with when I ask them who is creditor.
    Meanwhile the spokesman for Deutsche bank—Mr. John Gallagher—has said PUBLICLY that Deutsche has absolutely no beneficial interest in ANY of the “loans”…WTF???

    I have some things I can do that I have discussed with attorney—it’s just a little scary…but I can’t go back—I know the truth…so I have no choice but to stay strong and fight.

  28. @Carie,

    Do you have the ability to file a.s.a.p. a chapter 7 before the sale? I understand that it is one of the main ways to turn a non-judicial foreclosure into a judicial case. That would buy you some time to plan your strategy. What did your attorney suggest?

    I’m really sorry to see what TnHarry and I warned you of happen so fast. Also, is it just you or do you have kids living with you? If it is just you, you can take chances and be creative in your defenses (although it may not work). At this juncture, BK might be the only option but you need to act fast.

  29. “Credit scores can have a significant impact on a consumer’s financial life” Exaclty! That’s why they need to go, that is the Bankster game. It’s another scam thrust upon us all by illegitimate authority

  30. non-judicial CA.

  31. Yup. I have an attorney who said: “We have to educate the judges.”…so here we go…

    Indymac servicer totally ignored my requests back in May for proof of my payments going to trust “loan”…six months later on the dot—sale notice. Then promptly receive OCC review papers in the mail.
    I told servicer he has to stop sale if he can’t come up with proof of real creditor with full accounting—he said he would postpone it and send me a “formal response” to my questions. Contacted Robbie Weaver of Aztec foreclosure mill who informs me Deutsche Bank is “investor/creditor” and sale has NOT been postponed. I then informed servicer what foreclosure mill said and that it looks like I am being lied to and tricked.

  32. @Carie,

    Since I already have an attorney, I would immediately call him. Also, it probably depends whether you’re in a judicial or non-judicial state and how your own state handles foreclosure procedures.

    If I didn’t have an attorney, I would right away call the AG’s office and that number on OCC (even though I do not believe in mods).

    Did that happen to you?

  33. I have been on a Debt strike for 2 years+, doing my best to hold back the collectors, but I did keep one credit card to make online purchases with and they raised my credit limit $500 last week, not bad since I have 14 different collections, but the $25,000 I owe is just a drop in the bucket compared to the $250,000+ I have lost due to the greedy banks

  34. Hey Enraged—

    If a foreclosure mill pasted a sale date on your front door on Monday—what’s the first thing you would do?

    Thanks.

  35. TOM PARKER JUDGE ,ARKON COURT ,SUMMIT COUNTY COMMON PLEAS HAD A DUTY TO REPORT, SUMMIT COUNTY COURT OF APPEALS HAD DUTY TO REPORT , OHIO SUPREME COURT, UNITED STATES DISTICT COURT NORTHERN DISTRICT OF OHIO HAD A DUTY TO REPORT, OHIO ATTORNEY GENERAL ( RICHARD CODRAY ) LIKE PATERNO DIDNT DO ENOUGH DID NOT FOLLOW THE LAW THEY HAD DUTY TO REPORT THE CRIMES COMMITTED AGAINST ME , THE CASE IS BEFORE THE UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS SIXTH CIRCUIT IN CINCINNATI OHIO , JUDGE ADAMS HAD A DUTY TO REPORT F.B.I HAS NOT DID ANYTHING, THE CRIMES HAVE ALL BEEN REPORTED TO ALL THESE PARTIES AND INDIVIDUALS HAVE BEEN MADE COMPLETLY AWARE OF THESE CRIMES DOZENS OF TIMES AND NOT ONE OF THEM HAS DONE NOTHING, THERE IS A DANGEROUS RE-OCCURRING THEME HERE, THEY DONT GIVE A DARN, AND HAVE COMMITED CRIMES THEMSELVES BY NOT REPORTING see case# 11-3277 UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS FOR THE SIXTH CIRCUIT , SEE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT NORTHERN DISTRICT OF OHIO CASE # 5:10 CV 2766 JUDGE ADAMS, SEE JUDGE SARA LIOI FROM SAME DISTRICT COURT CSE# 5:07 CV 1840 WHO SAID AT VERY BEGINNING THIS CASE LACK STANDING , AND ALL OTHER JUDGES OVER RULE THIER OWN SISTER JUDGES RULIN GS, SEE THE WORST JUDGE TOM PARKER IN AMERICAN HISTORY WHO ALLOWED 14 FAKE SIGNATURES OF ATTORNEY KEVIN WILLIAMS TO BE USED TO OBTAIN SUMMARY JUDGMENT, HE ALSO AWARDED A SUMMMARY JUDGMENT WITH NO WITNESS AND NO AFFIDAVIT WITH NO AFFIANT, AND LIED TO COURT, AND GOT ATTORNEY TO HELP HIM LIE AND SHE DID HER NAME IS ROBIN WILSON OF THOMPSON HINE ,THIER SENOIR PARTNER HAS BE CHARGED WITH CRIMES FOR FAILURE TO REPORT INCOME SEE CASE #CV 2007-11-8364 JUDGE TOM PARKER IN AKRON OHIO WHY WOULD SOMEONE PAY ANY BANK ANOTHER PENNY EVER ,UNITED STATES IS OVER WHY SHOULD ANYBODY OBEY THE LAW ANY MORE THIS IS THE WOSRT CRIMINAL BEHAVIOR I HAVE EVER SEEN HERE IN OHIO THE CORRUPTION IS GONE WILD JUDGES ARE GOING TO JAIL FASTER THAN ANYBODY IN CUYAHOGA COUNTY OHIO THERE ARE 45 HIGH RANKING OFFICALS CHARGE WITH CORRUTION SEE JIMMY DIMMORA, FRANK RUSSELL , DONT PAY THEY PEOPLE ANYMORE.

  36. http://www.mybanktracker.com/bank-news/2011/11/11/bank-transfer-day-wrapup/

    Music to my ears: the fallout of November 5th may take months to estimate and… that story of banks not missing small accounts because they costs more to manage than they’re worth was, once again, counterinformation.

    Yeppeeeeeee!!!!!!!!

  37. http://www.mybanktracker.com/bank-news/2011/11/11/study-shows-big-banks-vulnerable/

    Banks are hurting!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  38. Credit is what you need to buy something… on credit! The minute you stop using credit for anything, the worry of that score completely goes away.

  39. @lies

    We’re all in the same boat: either we pay our mortgage or we keep water, electricity and gas running. What has stopped any government action thus far is homeowners’ reluctance to speak up and tell their story, coupled with banks’ bad faith in accusing them of irresponsible behavior. As soon as government decided to look into it, the repugnicans did their dance of echoing any lies Moynihan and Dimon had to say while accepting all the bribes they could get.

    There aren’t enough cops, sheriffs, troopers, rangers, military, agents, etc. to do government’s bidding and come after everyone. And those guys have a house that has lost over half its value, they have kids with student loans who are unable to find any work, they have unpaid medical bills because, a few years ago, the states stopped offering insurance to their families, they nearly lost their bargaining power and they’re angry as hell against the repugnicans.

    We’re good. Stop paying and don’t worry about it: nothing will happen for a while and, if anything happens afterwards, it would have whether you paid or not. We have come to a point of no-return and our paying or not paying can do nothing either way.

    How does that thing go again: “Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I can’t change, the courage to change those I can and the wisdom to know the difference.”

  40. what can we do to get the word out there our daily mantra helped get occupy off the ground now we need to starve the banks. As some of sit here and wait for foreclosure and bk we need to do something wish we can get anonymous to taken add out in evry news paper to get in touch with the people. Help who we can in another comment poor leah is losing her house in texas all the assignments r wrong but its non judicial i told her to get on foreclosure hamlet and try and contact james m he is from texas and might help her. So we are doing good guys our knowledge is helping others fight

  41. They’ve (the debt collectors/banks), conned us into believing a good credit score is the most important thing in the world…
    But like Dave Ramsey says—a credit score is just an “I love debt score”…
    The whole global system is collapsing anyway…just stop giving what ever money you have left to criminals…because quite frankly, that’s what they are—criminals who have gotten away with the rape and pillage of the world…

  42. I’ve been on a debt strike for 2 years.
    It’s all about justice.

  43. why are you paying judges and banks to take your home are you that stupid stop paying, start suing them, and stay in your house and never leave your are a forclosure hero any thing you get from banks or Occ is no good they all work for each other with each other dont be stupid if you sign your name to anything again ever it had better be a big fat check or a lawsuit dont sign anything esle again voting does not work as soon as they swear in its over they must do what the 1% tells them to do.

  44. hey lies is all they tell , never leave your home sue them file a lawsuit against them they must answer dont admit to a debt you may not owe your house is most likely paid for by you if you pay taxes or have a 401k plan anyway, to make it simple you sign up for school the school bills you but meanwhile you got approved for goverment grant they paid college for your bill ,then you go to school on government free its just the same the college cant get paid twice.

  45. florida bar hosting “foreclosure seminar” for the bank! WTF..
    if your not mad as hell by now you are surely asleep so ..eh.. wake tfu

    http://4closurefraud.org/2011/11/11/public-records-request-on-fl-15th-judicial-circuit-pbc-seminar-for-residential-foreclosure-division-legal-staff-training/#comment-196688

  46. WE have no choice ,we must stop paying, now ,stop paying your mortgage, stop voting for politicans , they have rob me they don’t follow the constitution, thats why no debtor has ever been allowed a trial by a jury why would you keep paying these crooks?, you are allowing them to flourish, every time you give them one cent, it makes no sense to keep paying, politians are the elite hiearchy , they have sold are country, its already gone people, we must try to take it back, they must do what they are told, politians lie for a living, try calling one of them, when and if you really what to punish the banks and the lobbyist, and politians, you must hurt them and hit them were it counts, and hurts the most in thier pockets,, its thier heart and soul and thier pivital value find a mans money and you find his heart, we have the power to take it away, stop paying , now , by no means am i bragging they forced me into defualt and try to get me to sign a 60 year modification, added over twenty thousand dollars in fees and at end of 60 years i would have given these crooks near a million dollars for a house that i receive a tax apprasial in the the county said is now worth 60 thousand dollars, they are trying to get nearly a million dollars from me for something they dont own , they have no note ,and a fake assignment , no title, i been fighting them prose in court this is my fifth year of not paying a 722 dollar note at 12% interest . stop paying them thier is power in just saying no to the debt., history says protest is just not enough we need boycott for change. stop paying these people and the people who the politians sold are country will give it back to us for pennies on the dollar.

  47. there seems to be a disconconect between the government, the banks , and even everyone on this site. before everyone gets mad at me , when unemployment is so high that there is 50-700 applications for low , warehouse jobs there is something wrong. yes i said 700. my husband is on unemployment since june and i help him apply. career builder has a place to see how many applicants applied to the position and if they are unemployed ect. one warehouse position in tampa florida had 700 applicants. so with this kind of competition i am not sure my husband will ever get ajob that pays 15-20/hr what he was making before he losthi job last summer.

    so what are we suppose to do? ok i am a responsible person a nurse for 25 years. i have already sold a home in 2006 because of a jpb loss. this was different reason not the economy my husband could not find a job in miami/ft lauderdale but because he was not bilingual. so when he was a year unemploed we sold and moved and only to find ourselves in the same position. the rents here are cheap i would gladly sell my home and rent until things are better only problem is they stole all our equity we can not sell this time.

    i have been dealing with wells fargo since 2009 they have done nothing short of loan origination fraud and modification fraud. our appraisal, mortgage application and modification is a disaster. i have wrote everyone OCC, pam bondi, congressman richard nugent and marco rubio. waiting got a call from wells fargo they are investigating the fraud

    in the mean time my husband is not working i didnt use my credit cards to buy big ticket items and go on a fancy vacations i used it to save my hime in 2009 i had lost my job. i was not ready to leave and foreclose i used my credit card to pay bills and stay in my home.

    with my husband out of work i can not pay any bills. this is the disconect. why would people be paying the banks if there is a job loss??? i can not figure out why people have not stopped paying. i take that back i did the same thing when wells fargo told me not to pay even though i was current i used the money to pay my crdit card bills but hen when my husband lost his job i couldnt even pay those. i tried so hard to negotiate no one would capitol one, fifth third, chase

    so her i am on this site to say our once 789 crdit score for our 25 years as adult working class is now zero.

    thank you and have a nice day, waiting for some releif

  48. oh yea… Jail all bankers & all gov agents involved or who knew or should have known and NOT ACTING to stop these crimes !!!
    consider these bankster & the gov aids both are murder suspects,attempting to murder the victim[s] 1 dollar@ a time, there is no curing these fukin criminals..
    the fix is the punishment for treason its cheaper & faster too.

  49. yup
    The answer is to stop paying anything to any bank or congress, or gov, or insurance ,or debt collector, until ..eh….ah……..hell freeezes.
    fuk em

    next up……boycotting the large corps 1 at a time, starve em.
    the only weapon a consumer has is his coins.

  50. EVICTION NOTICE TO OCCUPY OAKLAND 11-11-2011

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/72486611/EVICTION-NOTICE-TO-OCCUPY-OAKLAND-NOV-11-2011

  51. There you go!

    The answer is to stop paying anything to any bank until Congress passes laws ordering confiscation of bankers’ property while criminal investigations have been completed.

    Jail all bankers who had anything to do with this debacle.

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